A random knife question from a complete novice

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Chris T92

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Mar 17, 2024
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Hi all,

This is a bit of a random one. I'm writing a novel. In one scene, Character A places a knife of sentimental value on top of a body on a funeral pyre.

Hours later, Character B retrieves the knife from the smouldering pyre.

The hilt of the knife is comprised of sapphire gemstone, and the blade itself is likely carbon steel (It's a medieval setting, they have access to steel).

Google tells me pyres burn at around 700-1000C. It also tells me sapphires don't melt until 2000+C. But steel can depend on its composition etc, and it also starts weakening at around 300C.

I really need the knife to still be in a useable condition once it's taken from the pyre. So my question is:

Would a few hours on a pyre melt the blade, or weaken it to a point where it is unuseable? If yes, is there a way this could be mitigated? The metal used for the blade isn't important, as long as it could be retrieved in the dark ages, so if a change of metal would make this more realisitic I'd be open to suggestions. I'm basically looking to avoid a plot hole with a major part of my story!

Thanks :)
 
At 1000C or 1832F no carbon steel will be melting, that wouldn’t happen until above 1400C or around 2600F. The problem would be any heat treatment of the blade would be gone it would basically be the equivalent of sticking the knife in a forge for hours and likely would cause grain growth and need to be reheat treated. Depending on how much scale forms during the pyre the knife could end up significantly smaller after all the necessary steps to reharden and correct the blade. Not to mention any handle material would have burned away leaving the bare metal and gems. It would likely create a whole plot headache unless you wanted to write in a chapter or few paragraphs of the character B remaking the knife. Perhaps a simpler solution would be to have the knife on display with a banner slightly away from the pyre so it’s not affected by the heat. Or given to character B before the pyre is lit along with a few other personal items. If it was me I’d likely write it in a way that the knife doesn’t end up in the fire.
 
How about Char A has an Obsidian blade imported from the New World ? :)

Either way, the Gemstone probably has fallen out, so you should account for that.
 
Thanks for the replies!

That does sound like a lot of headaches to deal with, but the symbolism of the blade being in the pyre is important to the story, so I'd rather not place it elsewhere or have it handed over beforehand, etc.

My book is a semi-realistic fantasy set in a medieval-esque world, but I'm still gunning for quasi-realism, so I don't want to answer it with 'it was just magic'.

I could ditch the steel. Would making the entirety of the hilt purely gemstone - with no wood - work if the blade was obsidian instead of steel? This knife is primarily ceremonial, it's not regularly used. So any material that will keep its integrity somewhat intact on the pyre will do.

It doesn't need to be in perfect condition afterwards; in fact it would look cool if it looked somewhat rugged around the edges. It just needs to be useable, once, later on.
 
What if the blade was forged from a strange metal, dull grey and very light (titanium), eg sourced from a stone that fell from a sky? Titanium has a higher melting point and does not take to a regular heat treat as steel. Theoretically the blade could have come out harder out of the pyre. It could work from semi-realistic fantasy perception.
 
It could still be a knife, just not for long.
You could stab or hurt somebody with it like you could with any sharpened piece of steel.
It just won't hold an edge and it would bend a lot easier.
But it could be used to hurt or kill somebody.
 
Just as the pyre reached 800° C some drunk guy slipped on a banana peel, fell into the fire and made the knife slide off - directly into the river, quenching it. A loitering wizard was so scared by the evaporating water that he reflexively cast a fireball toward the knife, tempering it
 
As both a gemologist and a metallurgist, there would be little left to call a usable knife as you describe it. It is not about melting; it is about what oxygen and long exposures to high temperatures change in the metal and gem.
To explain the problem in short, a diamond does not melt until 4027°C, but burns up into carbon dioxide vapor at 900°C in the presence of oxygen.

A steel blade would be a black, scale covered softened mess. The handle material gone completely. A blue sapphire either ruined or black.

The sapphire may or may not survive. It could be cracked and possibly a different color after a long burn in wood coals.
Corundum (ruby and sapphire) will take a lot of heat, and with slow cooling survive, but in an uncontrolled burn for a long time- coming out unchanged is not likely.
Most sapphires are "heat treated to improve clarity and color. They are heated to between 800°C and 1800°C and held at that temperature for 10 hours to hundreds of hours. The chemical elements in the surrounding atmosphere determine the final color. If burned in an uncontrolled atmosphere of oxygen and carbon I suspect the result will be a black sapphire. If that works for the story, then it will be realistic.

Solution - Maybe making the knife forged from a meteorite of mysterious composition would work. It could be described as black with a mysterious sheen. The burned away handle could be replaced with a leather wrapping or left as bare metal. It would still be usable.
Making the hilt forged in the shape of a claw and clutching a large black sapphire would solve the gemstone issue.
 
Maybe you could re- think the scenario and have someone secretly swap out the real dagger for a fake one that gets destroyed in the fire. Or, as mentioned above, have the dagger imbued with mystical properties that make it behave differently than normal steel.

For what it's worth, I have found many flint arrowheads that can easily be identified as having been dropped in a fire. Burned arrowheads always have pock-marks and cracks where heated flint has popped off in small flakes. Collectors call it "fire pop" and it's easy to see. So, if you're trying to be realistic then a flint knife likely wouldn't survive a pyre, at least not in useable form.

Edit: would a bronze blade work? They're cast and not tempered, with a melting point above 950 C. Perhaps more resilient than steel when heated for prolonged periods?
 
The body isn't quite Dead yet.......

With the last dieing gasp, sits up, reaching out screaming........ as the Fire takes hold.

That sends the knife to the floor, safely out of the harm of the flames, as the body boils and melts.
 
You have learned so much about steel and gems now that I suggest using that to found your fantasy.

“While no mere steel blade could handle the lingering magma like tomb, the Skymetal did not suffer from our laws of metallurgy!”

Nope…not much of a fantasy writer 😂 back to my grinder 👍
 
Hi all,

Thanks so much for the replies. Sorry it's been a week or two - I've been away with work.

I think I'm going to combine pieces of above advice and go with a 'mysterious sheen' solution. It is a fantasy after all, but perhaps there is a way metal can be forged that gives it more resistance while not being too outlandish.

Also the idea of it being placed 'under' the pyre and somewhat-insulated from the primary burn would work too. As long as it is in there somewhere, that's the only symbolism I need for the story.

Thanks again!
 
You know, there is a LOT of good symbolism in the reforging of an object too...

The character finds the blade, reforges it allowing the ruined blade to rise from the ashes like a Phoenix taking flight... Just like the character's experiences have reshaped them, making them stronger and sharper than they ever were originally...
 
A.McPherson said:
You know, there is a LOT of good symbolism in the reforging of an object too...

The character finds the blade, reforges it allowing the ruined blade to rise from the ashes like a Phoenix taking flight... Just like the character's experiences have reshaped them, making them stronger and sharper than they ever were originally...
Click to expand...
Agreed! Blades get reforged commonly in great literature, such as Lord of the Rings and the Saga of the Volsungs. It's a great symbolism for transformation.
 
Chris T92 said:
Hi all,

Thanks so much for the replies. Sorry it's been a week or two - I've been away with work.

I think I'm going to combine pieces of above advice and go with a 'mysterious sheen' solution. It is a fantasy after all, but perhaps there is a way metal can be forged that gives it more resistance while not being too outlandish.

Also the idea of it being placed 'under' the pyre and somewhat-insulated from the primary burn would work too. As long as it is in there somewhere, that's the only symbolism I need for the story.

Thanks again!
Click to expand...
I applaud you for seeking out expert advice. As you mentioned you did receive some great ideas. I have done quite a bit of proof reading for authors both from the cowboy side of things and from gun stuff. A friend sent me, along with his rough draft, an excerpt from a book he had just finished reading by another author. This excerpt explained why he was having me read over his rough draft. In the excerpt the hero flicked the safety off of his revolver. My friend said "I never want to write something as dumb as that."
 
Horsewright said:
I applaud you for seeking out expert advice. As you mentioned you did receive some great ideas. I have done quite a bit of proof reading for authors both from the cowboy side of things and from gun stuff. A friend sent me, along with his rough draft, an excerpt from a book he had just finished reading by another author. This excerpt explained why he was having me read over his rough draft. In the excerpt the hero flicked the safety off of his revolver. My friend said "I never want to write something as dumb as that."
Click to expand...

Our brains are our First safety..... Maybe the character turned that off, going full berserk mode....? Haha

Berserk mode is fun, and all... Just Less so with a revolver.
😂😂😂😂
 
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