A Schrade Knife collectors' worst nightmare...issue with Schrade Loveless Knife.

[Larry303]

Mine is one of three in low number sequence, I obtained years ago, all mint in box,...I sold one of them for about Au$900 <US$720> to a New York Collector, after Bob Loveless passed, < collector of anything that appreciates in value he told me at the time>...I sure hope he is checking his investment for similar problem as mine.......Herman W advised me I should perhaps remove my scales immediately before sending to him to rehandle in May..I havn't done so as I do not wish to damage the birds eye rivets with my amateurish efforts...I'm happy for him to remove and provide the autopsy results....the upside is I'm looking forward to seeing his snazzy toasted stag or bone stag on this S/Loveless.....

I repeat I have had other PM's from knife collectors in other sites here, who have told me I am no orphan with the delrin problems I'm having, and its more widespread than we perhaps realize or want to admit....I'm not surprised <but disappointed> Grey menace has found similar problem......perhaps a time bomb on collecting expensive knives we didn't need....but it's no reason we should go into denial if it is happening IMO...it's ironic I have an unnumbered and without blade etch genuine Schrade Loveless from the Schrade clearing sale and it appears to still be perfect...wish it was that one with the problems......Hoo Roo

 

[ea42]

Larry, I hadn't realized there was a problem at all, let alone one with so many affected. Must have had my head stuck down a gofer hole. Seems like you never know about the stability of some items until a good deal of time passes. I know delrin will outgas or oxidize under certain conditions, but the Loveless issue is new to me. I wouldn't be too concerned about damaging the bird's eyes, since it's fairly impossible to save those particular ones anyway. The brass "washer" is actually a nut, and the "rivet" is really a screw or bolt that initially had a round slotted head on it. Once the nuts are tightened down, the head is ground off leaving those nice bird's eyes. The only way to remove them is to grind or cut them off, but the good news is they're still readily available, aptly known as Loveless bolts.

Eric

 

[koldgold]

Larry, I have one genuine RL2 bolt and brass nuts. I have just looked to see if anyone was selling the genuine RL2 bolts.
All the ones for sale do not have the brass nuts, the stainless bolt and brass nut make the bird's eye.
I will check and see if I can make you a set, or you can have this one to make another one the same.
To get those bolts out you should "pop" the silver bird's eye with a "centre pop" and then drill a 5/64" hole, about 1/2"deep - If you then put a 1/8" drill down the 5/64" hole the nut will fall apart. You only need to do this once, on each pin.
If you decide to drill the 5/64" hole I will have to send you a drill (special) and some cutting oil.
It is not hard to do, just take your time... Ken

 

[Larry303]

Thanks for your very kind offer Ken, however I would rather leave the knife to Herman W's bag of tricks....and see what he comes up with....have to better than its current deteriorating state.....as an Engineer/Customeriser I'm a reasonable fisherman....thanks. Hoo Roo.

 

[tongueriver]

xxxxxx

 

[Larry303]

Cal, what are saying mate?...that mine is just not a perfect fit like yours?....my Loveless knife was perfect, with delrin handle butting up perfectly to the cross guard, when it was photographed for lrv's Schrade collector site..it has since simply deteriorated while stored in box, in constant environment, and separate from its leather sheath...it started by looking like yours when I first inspected a while back and noticed a problem...then next inspection some months later was as the photos show on page 1 of this thread...I couldn't believe my eyes....

Trust for your sake the knife fairies/vandals aren't at work under your delrin scales...made in 1975, now 40 year old time bomb it may appear....my older Cel knives have lasted better, all bar one which started to eat itself...not pretty sight........and they are all stored separate......I think this may only be the beginning of the Delrin story and not the end...<or at least with regards the Schrade Loveless Delrin handled knives and their construction as has been suggested>....Hoo Roo

 

[tongueriver]

xxxxxxx

 

[koldgold]

That is what I did to my three, tried to see if they could swim.
Larry, I sent some emails out last night, looking for new handles.
I am sure I have seen some-one selling those handles... Ken

 

[Codger_64]

From a technical perspective... I was at one time a plastics molding manufacturing process engineer. And I am familiar with the properties of many different plastics. If Dupont Delrin degrades over time, I am not aware of it. The best source for information on such is Dupont themselves as they are still producing and selling the bulk material to the plastic molding market worldwide. What has mostly changed is molding technology, specificly the molding process itself. While the steel molds are pretty much the same as they have always been, there have been vast improvements made in the system controls of the molding machines. This greatly improved dimensional stability from the injection into the mold of the melted plastic pellets to the cooling/solidifying before ejection from the molds. Thus the earlier moldings were molded oversized and sheared to exact size after ejection and cooling. You see the molds themselves are heated and cooled in cycles by zones, internal channels in the mold halves. And temperatures and durations (as well as mold injection pressure) are critical to producing a dimensionally stable part without flaws (splay, sinks, etc.)

With improvements (Computerized instead of manual by operators by 2004), the covers could be molded to exact size and not require subsequent shearing to size in a die. This is where we came up with the dark line of dye next to the bolsters on the later Old Timer slipjoints, and less base color revealed (by glazing to size) along the upper and lower spines of fixed blades like the Sharpfingers. After additional thought, one might contact Crown Plastics who did quite a bit of the molding for Schrade. I don't know that they molded the Loveless covers, but it is worth asking their engineering staff.

http://www.crownplastics.com/

 

[ea42]

Here is mine; seems like normal not-perfect fit to me. What's this talk about micarta? I have never heard of one of these Loveless knives in micarta.

Disregard that micarta comment guys, I'm an idiot, it's delrin, think I need to learn to read. At least Dave had it mixed up too

Larry if you should happen to need a couple of the birdseye bolts let me know, I have a few of the originals here and can shoot them down to Herman if need be. The only problem is they'd be difficult to finish on stag since they're primarily made for a smooth handled knife. Stag is usually done with compression rivets since the heads on those are already finished and don't require cutting or grinding. That being said nothing's impossible.

Eric

 

[Larry303]

Thanks for your kind offer Eric....PM sent.....Hoo Roo

 

[Larry303]

Further to the Delrin issues on my Schrade Loveless #0145 the 'Grand old Gentleman of Schrade' customising, Herman Williams, has kindly re-handled with Rams Horn. Herman calls himself 'an old geezer' these days and sent me a photo to prove it....I reckon he is still a young whipper snapper!....and is old enough to be my...brother!...
Herman likes to work with Rams Horn now that stag is becoming scarce/expensive to obtain...I have some of his famous toasted stag custom work and I reckon his use of Rams Horn gives a whole new dimension to his unique/inimitable custom work...... Photos of the Schrade Loveless collaboration Hunter with its beautiful new lease on life with its disintegrating Delrin handles gone forever.....what do Forum members think?.....
Many thanks Herman, may you be long spared to carry out your beloved artisan bladeware craftsmanship...I know many Forum members have beloved examples of your custom expertise.. ...Hoo Roo from Downunder..


<Photos to follow>

 

[Ballenxj]

Further to the Delrin issues on my Schrade Loveless #0145 the 'Grand old Gentleman of Schrade' customising, Herman Williams, has kindly re-handled with Rams Horn. Herman calls himself 'an old geezer' these days and sent me a photo to prove it....I reckon he is still a young whipper snapper!....and is old enough to be my...brother!...
Herman likes to work with Rams Horn now that stag is becoming scarce/expensive to obtain...I have some of his famous toasted stag custom work and I reckon his use of Rams Horn gives a whole new dimension to his unique/inimitable custom work...... Photos of the Schrade Loveless collaboration Hunter with its beautiful new lease on life with its disintegrating Delrin handles gone forever.....what do Forum members think?.....

I think it was a darned good idea. I'll take Rams Horn over Delrin any day.
Would love to see the photos.

 

[lrv]

Larry's photos
Herman then and now

 

[lrv]

Larry's pictures of Herman's work.

 

[lrv]

part 2

 

[Ballenxj]

Larry's pictures of Herman's work.

Thanks.

 

[John A. Larsen]

I have an Uncle Henry Stockman with Delrin scales that I bought in 1970 to take to Vietnam with me, just checked it's scales and no movement or degradation, and it is at least 45 years old. John

 

[delmas2nd]

glad you and it made it back from Vietnam! now that is keeping a knife for a long time!

 

[FatCity67]

Yup that's one of them knives to pass along to family with a great provenance.