A Spyderco Pikal?

Loki

Loki

Joined
Mar 23, 2000
Messages
740
So we have a Karambit and a Spyderfly (just got mine - very cool). Any chance for a dedicated pikal (reverse grip - edge in) fixed blade? I could see the Ronin blade or even the Spyderfly blade shape being dang near perfect. Here's to hoping. :D
 
My Chinook II fits my hand perfectly in this grip. YMMV.


The FB Temperance looks like it would work quite well, too.
 
In my opinion, a good pikal knife isn't just a knife that's comfortable in that grip: tip alignment should be a big concern. I don't think the tip alignment of the Chinook or the Temperance FB are good for pikal. Another example of a knife that is comfortable in such a grip but probably not suited for such use is the Lum Tanto FB.
 
That temperance mod is great, though for a dedicated pakal knife, I prefer the blade not be as wide as the Ronin's. A knife meant to be used for thrusting, should have a blade a bit more optimized for thrusting.

ToTC, I'm still not certain I agree that a point that is higher-than-centerline is bad for pakal, although I'd say there's near-consensus that you're right and I'm wrong on this matter. I like the high point because it thrusts truer and more accurately for me. The only thing I don't like is a big belly -- not great for hooking.

Joe
 
I hear what you're saying, Joe. Hey, if it works for you, it works for you: there doesn't necessarily have to be a "right" or "wrong" on this.
Although pikal methodology may have certain constants, I can see how individual ergonomics, grip, etc, may lend to certain tip alignments over others. It seems that we agree that there shouldn't be a whole lot of belly though.

This seems to point out the other problem with a production company trying to make a pikal knife though: I haven't seen a whole lot of universal agreement with people on which production knives are good in pikal and which aren't.... there seems to be a lot of individual variation.
 
The Yojimbo will be good for Pikal, and SouthNarc shares this view with me. Those interested in Pikal should know the name "SouthNarc" as he is a major proponent of it. The Gunting feels good to me in Pikal grip, and the Shabaria which I handled, as I recall, felt good in Pikal grip. (SouthNarc works undercover, and while he does not guard his face as closely anymore, his name is still secret. I have seen his police ID and he is a personal friend, and he is quite real.) Edited to add: Oops, I see you asked about a fixed blade. The Ronin is not bad in Pikal grip, and with the mod shown by TOTC, should be even better. I carry a Ronin for deployment into "Clinch Pick" grip, forward grip, edge-in, which is promoted by SouthNarc but is also reputed to be the grip used by James Bowie with his early Bowie knives which were single-edged. BTW, the Yojimbo has a longer handle than the Ronin, making it better for Pikal than the Ronin.
 
The ideal pikal folder has a blade that is no more than three and a quarter inches long, with an overall envelope that doesn't exceed 7 1/2". The blade is single edged and the geometry geared towards alignment of the tip just above or in-line with the bottom edge of the bolster as one holds the knife in reverse grip edge in. The reason for this is so one doesn't have to articulate the wrist when thrusting, thus losing grip strength. The clip should be oriented for tip up carry.

Right now in the Spyderco line-up, the best folders suited for pikal are the Yojimbo and the deceased Shabaria.

The method drives the design, and much like Bram's Gunting it is software specific.

Here's a link to an overview of pikal methodolgy as interpreted by me for street application.

http://www.shivworks.com/PSP/An Expression of Pikal.pdf

And here's a link to Don Rearic's article on the modified Kershaw Talon (Southern Comfort) which has pics of the Talon (the quintessential pikal folder to date) and excellent discourse on the why's of the method.

http://www.donrearic.com/southerncomfort.html

As for a fixed blade, the Ronin would work nicely, if the finger indentation was on the other side.
 
I'd love the hell out of a dedicated pakal folder, and the discontinued Kershaw Talon is absolutely the best I've found for that application. Extremely smooth, fast, and a quiet opening. Right now I'm using a recently purchased Griptilian, as the handle feels better to me in that grip than the Endura I used to carry. If Spyderco came up with a decent pakal folder, I think I'd have to buy at least 3, and a trainer or 2 besides. :D
 
I would like to second all the attributes that Southnarc mentioned.

A couple of other requests come to mind--

The compression lock that is on the Gunting.

A relatively "thin" (ala my Ayoob) symetrical handle. G-10 & steel liners?

The ability to swap the clip from one side to the other.

A clip positioned so that the knife rides "low" in the pocket (like my current Ayoob).

Thanks for asking, Sal!
 
Ideally a compression frame lock for this piece. Strong second either to G-10 scales if a nested lock, or grooved/textured Titanium if a frame lock, but no Almite--at least not on a MBC folder. If resurrecting the Shabaria, I'd prefer a slightly wider grip in the middle.
 
Is the Pakal knife always used in reverse grip edge in?

Is it Pikal or Pakal?

Are there any books or videos on the stye?

A dedicated folder might be an interesting project.

thanx,

BTW, when I designed the Temperance FB, a concern was in dealing with animals (bears and cats where I live). I wanted a design that could be used in reverse grip, edge in, to penetrate easily and deeply and cut it's way out while pulling. I was concerened that a hawkbill style blade might be slow coming out. The double distal tapers (hilt to tip, spine to edge) does perform that particular goal well.

sal
 
As far as the spelling it can be either. The word is actually Visayan and means "to rip". It's most prevalent in Pekiti Tersia kali and in Ray Floro's expression of Illustrisimo principles. You're essentially using the reverse edge of the knife, in a thrusting methodology that's rapid-fire and staccato in rhythem. What we lose by having the edge in the reverse orientation is the ability to push the edge through the target. What we gain is the ability to shear anything that impedes our thrust line by pulling, using the large muscles in the back.

If you PM me with an addy Sal, I'll send you some video instructional material.
 
Sal I just realized that I don't have PMs here on the board so if you want to you can shoot me an e-mail through the board instead.
 
I've been training in Pekiti Tirsia Kali for about 6 yrs. at present and feel quite enlightened to the advantages of pakal primarily through full speed freeflow/sparring. It is pretty much completely offensive in mode and very powerful. Also difficult to counter without getting struck in the process with hard hammering thrust and jabs.

From my knowledge, pakal is edge-in by nature and I didn't know about it
until I began training in PTK.

The rule of thumb on size in our system is different per individual and how
they specifically move in pakal methodology.
The rule I was taught for 'maximum' pakal blade length is the length
from one's middle finger tip to the bottom of the palm heal, essentially the
length of one's vertical palm span. Again that's maximum, anything smaller
will pass fine. Going over this length did get a bit cumbersome and
unwieldly, and it would be more advantageous to be in saksak(forward) grip
to maximize reach with something that long anyhow.

My personal preference for pakal is something in the 4.5-5" blade range.
Small enough to be agile/mobile, but long enough to produce a decent
amount of damage per solid contact.

I differentiate between forward only knives, and Pekiti friendly knives. I find
advantages to both. The Pekiti friendly blade wouldn't have much of an
angular 'cant' or bend in either direction, and the tip would stay fairly 'inline'
with the long axis of the handle. It would ideally be usable comfortably in
edge-out and edge-in, in either forward or reverse. Aquisition of the handle
under stress in not always a precision act. I've had my trainer stripped from snagging on clothing, etc. in freeflow and the attacker was not stopping, and I had to grab the trainer off the floor while being aware of my opponent and his weapon, couldn't focus fully on 'how' I grabbed it, just had to get the handle back in hand asap.

Pommel must have 'capping' capacity. Some people do it, some don't, but it
is definitely an option that must be present.

Sal, I did talk to you briefly this past summer about the Temp. fixed and how
you did take into account the user base that does utilize edge in orientation.
That kind of consideration from a company head of higher quality products is
very appreciated and I do spread that kind of positive word around when
I get the chance.

Out of your entire 'current' line, I would say my optimal pakal and Pekiti
friendly knife in general is the Perrin street bowie. Light, very versatile not too wild and exotic in it's contours, inline structure and easily thumb-capped.

I hope you and Eric make it out to SoS this summer again. I can't wait to
check out that Bison fullsize folder I hear floating around.

I hope this point of view helps a bit.

Ken
 
Allow me my input here. I have not yet made the transition to pikal yet, but I seem to be headed in that direction. Currently, I am working with FGEI, mainly with Enduras and Delicas, using the thumbhole opening and a quick crush grip after moving my thumb over to attain that grip.

Seeing that Spydies are my favorite knives, and I tend to collect them, a dedicated Spyderco Pikal knife would get my full attention!

And a trainer too, but of course... :)

Karl
 
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