Advantage of "Non Stainless" Steels?

[Sibyrnes]

I mentioned this in another thread but I think it deserves it's own discussion. I don't know enough about the subject to have have an opinion, so this is an honest question: With the current state of technology of modern steels is there any practical reason to make a knife with any steel that is not considered "stainless"? Do "carbon steel" knives offer any advantage over modern steels? Now I understand tradition and I have more carbon steel knives than stainless, but I am asking from a totally logical point of view.

 

[scdub]

Here are a few possible reasons to make a non-stainless knife:

1) In my understanding, the absolute toughest steels currently made are non-stainless.

2) In general, non-stainless steels are less expensive.

3) In general, non-stainless steels are less-difficult/expensive to grind/heat treat for the individual maker.

4) Patina

 

[jfk1110]

Carbon steel can be sharpened on A mug, ceramic that is or the edge.of your car window or a good rock....

Not so with.new fangled stuff.........Simple is simple sometimes

 

[Wandering_About]

Non stainless steels range in properties from something humble but functional like, say, O1 or 1084, all the way up to "exotic" high alloy steels like CPM 15V or K390. From a metallurgy standpoint, these steels have lower (or sometimes no) chromium, which makes certain properties easier to attain. This may include very high toughness, or on the other end, carbides that are entirely composed of something like vanadium carbide, which can give very high wear resistance without sacrificing as much toughness as a stainless steel of similar wear resistance would. They also can get a patina through use, which some folks think looks good (and I agree).

Simple low alloy steels do offer an advantage in that they only need very basic abrasives to sharpen. When it comes to higher alloy steels (both stainless or non stainless) more care needs to be taken to match the abrasive to the composition of the steel to get the best out of them.

As an aside MagnaCut is a very cool stainless because its chemistry strikes the right chemistry balance to minimize chromium's effect on its toughness, bringing a stainless tool into the realms of a balance of properties that non stainless steels have.

That's a very simplified explanation... there's much more to it but I'll direct you to a resource like Knife Steel Nerds for much better information than I can give.

 

[20yard]

Some of the high alloy, non-stainless steels and tool steels are simply the best at getting a hair-popping edge, edge retention overall, and toughness. They just offer a higher level of performance than many of the stainless steels can offer. That hair-popping edge is the same reason that many razor blades and medical scalpels are still made from non-stainless steels, although stainless is often an option.

Simply put, knives made with those non-stainless steels can often perform better at knifey things. The trade off is that they need to be oiled and maintained. So even though I use those steels for machine work, I usually opt for stainless knife steels since my knives spend too much time getting wet. But I always keep myself aware of that performance sacrifice.

As others mentioned above, there are some recent stainless steel innovations that are very much disrupting this long-standing dilemma. Perhaps the high alloys will become a fading memory in the knife world.

 

[catspa]

Here’s an answer you won’t hear too often: because I don’t need stainless or super steels. I get tool steel for free (or so cheap it might as well be). My current preference is for L6, which traditionally is sawblade steel, although sometimes used for other tools as well. Anneals easily in my woodstove, heats easily in my propane forge, grinds easily with ordinary abrasives, and is forgiving of my primitive heat treating methods.

Once heat treated, I can easily sharpen and resharpen it to a keen edge. I cut stuff, when it loses it’s keen, I touch it up and cut stuff again. Not scared of sharpening, grandpa taught me at age 6.

I don’t sell knives, I make them for my own use, and sometimes I give them away. Occasionally I’ll make a sentimental one, like the one I cut open my father’s ashes with.

I don’t have the skills, knowledge or tooling to make knives from Magnacut (no offense, Larrin). But my crude farm-forged knives cut what I need to cut, without engaging me in interstate commerce, and it’s fun for me to make them.

I’m a simple man. I wear simple clothes, I eat simple food, I drive a simple truck, and I cut things with simple knives. I’ve reached the sweet spot of technology that works for me, and I am content.

Parker

 

[norcalAF]

Here’s an answer you won’t hear too often: because I don’t need stainless or super steels. I get tool steel for free (or so cheap it might as well be). My current preference is for L6, which traditionally is sawblade steel, although sometimes used for other tools as well. Anneals easily in my woodstove, heats easily in my propane forge, grinds easily with ordinary abrasives, and is forgiving of my primitive heat treating methods.

Once heat treated, I can easily sharpen and resharpen it to a keen edge. I cut stuff, when it loses it’s keen, I touch it up and cut stuff again. Not scared of sharpening, grandpa taught me at age 6.

I don’t sell knives, I make them for my own use, and sometimes I give them away. Occasionally I’ll make a sentimental one, like the one I cut open my father’s ashes with.

I don’t have the skills, knowledge or tooling to make knives from Magnacut (no offense, Larrin). But my crude farm-forged knives cut what I need to cut, without engaging me in interstate commerce, and it’s fun for me to make them.

I’m a simple man. I wear simple clothes, I eat simple food, I drive a simple truck, and I cut things with simple knives. I’ve reached the sweet spot of technology that works for me, and I am content.

Parker

This post needs photos

 

[K.O.D.]

My Biryukov #7 in S390 is insanely sharp. From what I've read, S390 is a tool steel with slightly less edge retention than Maxamet but more toughness. It's a laminate with a stainless.

 

[ferider]

In the following (edge retention vs. toughness, from knifesteelnerds.com / Larrin), the blue steels are stainless, the orange ones carbon. You move your eye right, you get harder steels, or up, and you get tougher steels with less hardness.

The orange curve shows you "best in class" knife steels, wrt to edge retention vs. toughness tradeoff. Except for Magnacut, they are all carbon steels, non-stainless.

Good toughness doesn't only mean less prone to catastrophic failure, but more importantly, less chipping.

For example, you want a to pick the most wear resistant steel at good toughness ? You should pick Maxamet or Rex 121 (both carbon steels, non-stainless).

 

[Horsewright]

As a knife maker my answer will be a little different. #1 reason? Folks request it. People just like high carbon steel. Whether its nostalgia or a bad experience with some stainless or whatever. People ask for it.

 

[David Mary]

Here are a few possible reasons to make a non-stainless knife:

1) In my understanding, the absolute toughest steels currently made are non-stainless.

AEBL does that.

2) In general, non-stainless steels are less expensive.

AEBL does that.

3) In general, non-stainless steels are less-difficult/expensive to grind/heat treat for the individual maker.

AEBL does that.

4) Patina

AEBL does that.

 

[David Mary]

AEBL stainless steel is my top recommendation from an overall standpoint; it is affordable, easy to process, adequately corrosion resistant, can be hardened usably up to 64 RC (I prefer it between 60 and 63), and best in class for toughness. But I will say that nothing is quite like the patina on a nice carbon steel blade that sees a lot of use, especially on food. And my favorite carbon steels, like 15N20, and 8670, have similar performance properties to AEBL, with lower corrosion resistance. I would choose one of these for my kitchen cutlery, and AEBL for almost anything else, except where I specifically want something completely rustproof, or with significantly higher edge retention, in which case I would most likely choose MagnaCut.

 

[Kryme]

I prefer them because they offer better edge retention and that's all I really care for in a pocket knife (95% of my EDC), and corrosion isn't a problem for me. With most steels it's a compromise between edge retention, toughness, and corrosion resistance, and you can usually have only two.

 

[scdub]

AEBL does that.

Funny - but does it?

I’ll take your word for it’s machineability, and this is certainly an inexpensive stainless, but looking at the KSN charts that most here use, it’s not as tough as the toughest carbon steels at the same hardness (which for me is essentially the definition of knife steel performance since I’m not worried about rust).

best in class for toughness.

…and I’m guessing that by “best in class” you mean the class of STAINLESS steels, not ALL steels, correct?

 

[Larrin]

…and I’m guessing that by “best in class” you mean the class of STAINLESS steels, not ALL steels, correct?

The toughness of AEB-L is excellent even when compared with non-stainless steels of similar wear resistance.

 

[scdub]

The toughness of AEB-L is excellent even when compared with non-stainless steels of similar wear resistance.

Sure, but in this context the question is whether it’s actually AS TOUGH as the toughest carbon steels.

Is it?

I’m relying in large part on YOUR rankings and tests to understand how these steels compare…

 

[David Mary]

you mean the class of STAINLESS steels, not ALL steels, correct?

I mean the class of "tough steels"

 

[Larrin]

Sure, but in this context the question is whether it’s actually AS TOUGH as the toughest carbon steels.

Is it?

Yes, the only steels that beat it have significantly lower wear resistance. It is as tough or tougher than many non-stainless steels known for their toughness including 3V, 52100, 80CrV2, and A8 mod.

 

[David Mary]

There's a reason I make AEBL choppers and swords.

 

[David Mary]

3) In general, non-stainless steels are less-difficult/expensive to grind/heat treat for the individual maker.

I should make an addendum: Not everyone has the ability to heat treat AEBL. I, with minimal shop space and equipment, certainly don't. That being said, anyone can send a few blades to a heat treatment service such as Peters, where they can get top tier heat treatment.