AEBL vs Delta 3V

[David45]

Both sound like great knife steels. How do they compare?
Edge holding
Toughness
Corrosion resistance
Ease of sharpening
Other...
I saw a little info in the Ask Nathan thread but it was somewhat buried. I thought this might get more information from users.
Good luck on 4/5 everyone

 

[aqw955]

Check on zknives and alpha knives supply, then you will see the difference. Aebl is stainless and 3v is high carbon tool steel, they are apple to orange. But with the presence of vanadium in 3v, I think it will have better edge retention. So still 3v for me

 

[XtianAus]

D3V is definitely my favourite carbon steel, but I do really appreciate a good stainless steel. Especially when it has an optimized/specialized/unique HT.

Just the ease of maintenance and corrosion resistance is attractive to me and where I live. I should say though, I have never had a problem with D3V and corrosion. But I have had VG10 rust on me...
Although I take better care of my Carothers compared to some other knives

That said, when I learnt Nathan was using AEBL and optimizing it's HT, I was intrigued and excited. I hope we see other patterns offered in it in the future.

Let's kick this thread off with what Nathan has already stated concerning these two steels:

"The person I collaborated with on the design was in the military. he observed that while most enlisted men are gearheads, they're not all knife nuts. And they are judged on the condition of their gear. So many of them are going to choose gear with lower maintenance requirements and will choose a stainless steel over a better, but rust prone, steel. With that in mind we have offered a stainless variation of the Utility Fighter. I chose aeb-l because it has a combination of edge stability, corrosion resistance and toughness that I like. It is not as weak as most stainless, and the edge is not chippy or crumbly or mushy like most stainless. It behaves almost like a simple carbon steel.

we used Elmax on the previous run, and it is also a fantastic stainless steel. Way underrated, I think because many folks have experienced it with a less-than-ideal heat treat. However its biggest strength over aebl, very high abrasion resistance, was not the mechanism most of the casual knife users were dulling their knives. They scrape and clack it into shit. Use a rock or a steel tailgate as a cutting board. Mechanisms where that wear resistance does not pay a dividend. And when they do it was difficult for them to re-sharpen. Aeb-l does not have that problem. Edge stability is key, and aebl has that in droves."

 

[betzner]

Might as well have a pic of one vs the other..........

 

[David45]

A quick search will show a discussion in a “folding knife” forum.
Bohler-Uddeholm AEB-L is discussed along with Sandvick 13c26 (a copy). They are compared to 8cr13moV. Good info but obviously heat and cryogenic treatments are said to give different performance characteristics. One writer likes his AEB-L cryogenically treated and hardened to HRC 62.
Anyone know how Nathan conditions his AEB-L? Nathan?

Still begs the question; can both UFs be hammered through a cement block without dying?
How much longer can I leave AEB-L out in the elements without suffering permanent rust damage as compared to Delta 3V?
After Nathan does his magic, can I sharpen each on a river rock and get an equivalent edge?

I’ve decided to add the UF to my “collection” of CPKs. Which one? (I can’t get the warden’s permission to get both )

 

[Cap’n Smudge]

A quick search will show a discussion in a “folding knife” forum.
Bohler-Uddeholm AEB-L is discussed along with Sandvick 13c26 (a copy). They are compared to 8cr13moV. Good info but obviously heat and cryogenic treatments are said to give different performance characteristics. One writer likes his AEB-L cryogenically treated and hardened to HRC 62.
Anyone know how Nathan conditions his AEB-L? Nathan?

Still begs the question; can both UFs be hammered through a cement block without dying?
How much longer can I leave AEB-L out in the elements without suffering permanent rust damage as compared to Delta 3V?
After Nathan does his magic, can I sharpen each on a river rock and get an equivalent edge?

I’ve decided to add the UF to my “collection” of CPKs. Which one? (I can’t get the warden’s permission to get both )

Go for an AEBL next week. If you don’t get one, then I guess it’s D3V for you!

 

[David45]

Great idea. One for each son when I’m done.

 

[Bigfattyt]

I don't have extensive or hard use tales to share about either steel.....

What I will say, is sharpening my cpm3v is a bear. And I mean that!! Reprofiling a 4 inch CPM3V has taken me more time than significantly reprofiling 10 inch heavy convex bowies in steels like VG1. Or simple carbon steels, even using the same stones.



CPM 3v has been a beast with the limited equipment have. My diamond stone ( a cheap Smith medium grit) has given up having any effect. Now....that stone is worn out, and needs replacement. I've done a lot of steel removal with it over the years... but it still works on simple carbon, L6, 52100, and all my 10xx and tellingly, it works fine on my AEBL still!


I have been using a course Lansky basic stone (,not diamond) on the CPM3v and it has taken 20 or so hours, and it still have some spots not quite done.

If it was not a nice custom Kwaken by Ben Tendick I'd just hit it with my belt sander... I've fully reprofile Busse knives that cost more, both by hand, and by belt sander.

In contrast, I reprofiled a relatively obtuse primarily grind on a little AEBL on a regular stone and it took actual minutes!!! Maybe 15 or less, and I actually almost over did it!!!!!!

So much faster. It is also extremely easy to touch up on either stones, or ceramic. Gets an easy sticky hair jumping edge with minimal effort.

No complaints yet about AEBL yet. I bought another custom in it, after experiencing it on the first.

 

[Tricky Dickey]

Have you tried sharpening any of the D3V from Nathan? It’s relatively easy to sharpen in my experience.

 

[TRfromMT]

Delta 3V, 6" UF. Getting a *nearly* mirror polish was about an hour long affair. Im talking starting with a factory edge and a 200 grit diamond stone to establish a new bevel all the way through several progressions of stones and stropping. I was surprised at the ease it sharpened.

 

[Bigfattyt]

Have you tried sharpening any of the D3V from Nathan? It’s relatively easy to sharpen in my experience.

No, it is CPM3V from Ben Tendick (he does do cryo with LN) but I don't know that he does the same heat treat protocol as Delta 3V from Nathan....


But, I'm using a non diamond stone. My only diamond stone is plumb worn out, and it was only a medium grit to begin with.

 

[CataD]

I've reprofiled and sharpened Delta 3V (and also CPM 20CV) with a $30 Lansky system. It took a little longer than on the KME or WE, but it worked fine. When I say longer, I mean like 30 min - 1h or so...

CPM 3V and such are super steels. Why would you expect to be able to sharpen them on a river rock?

EtA: What is the steel hardness of that CPM 3V Tendick knife you have?

Cheers,
C.

 

[Brian77]

AEBL is a dream to sharpen, even at 63rc. D3v is not fun for us to sharpen. Also D2 is not... Compared to 52100, 1095, CRv 2,.... They are a joy to sharpen.

D3v holds an edge well. Slow speed sharpening is the key. But I don't enjoy sharpening it.

 

[ElCaptain]

CPM 3V and such are super steels. Why would you expect to be able to sharpen them on a river rock?

Might be something to think about for the upcoming Kephart/bushcraft knife. Some of us want to have the option to be able to sharpen our knives on river rocks. I personally would love a FK2 in something that would be a bit easier as it is one of my favorite designs so far.

 

[AR-Trvlr]

Adding a few quotes about AEBL to add to the info:

3V has extraordinarily good impact resistance and ductility at relatively high hardness and high abrasive wear resistance due to the high vanadium carbide volume fraction (one of the hardest carbides). The Delta protocol addresses its edge stability issues helping it achieve a durable edge at fine geometries making the steel both tough and strong in a knife edge application making the finished product an extremely useful highly durable cutting tool. Durable in both a large scale (the knife is practically unbreakable) and at a small scale (the edge will tolerate abuse without chipping or rolling). A side effect of the Delta protocol is improved corrosion resistance due to the free chromium making it nearly stainless.

Optimized AEBL is very tough for a stainless and has a fine edge stability almost as good as a simple carbon steel. It is very close to an old school simple steel (tough, easy to sharpen, takes a very keen edge) yet has good corrosion resistance. There are other more complex stainless with better corrosion resistance, but they're icky with that mushy crumbly edge that needs to be obtuse to keep from blunting when pressed into hard work. AEBL is a less expensive material than 3V and being a simple steel the heat treat process is a simple anneal, pre-quench, austenitize, cryo and tempers, which is less involved than the Delta protocol and more affordable. It's a good steel for non-knife-nuts because it is more adorable (edit affordable) and easy to maintain.

AEBL has good corrosion resistance compared to a carbon steel but it's not great compared to some other stainless, but this is necessary to retain its world class edge stability. Its edge retention is pretty good due to the high hardness, but it is not in the same league as Delta 3V because it doesn't have the abrasion resistance. It is easy to sharpen though and rewards a skilled sharpener with a fiendishly sharp edge with very little fuss. D3V can also get extremally sharp due to my fine grain, high hardness, uniform microstructure with minimal RA and other messy structures and 3V's ultra fine carbide, but it takes more time due to the resistance to abrasion.

AEBL is like a simple carbon steel which many wood workers prefer because they can get it screaming sharp easily and it can stabilize an edge at very narrow sharpening angles. But I would choose D3V because wood is often abrasive and I don't want to have to fool with sharpening my knife during a project and the wear resistance of 3V and the edge stability of our 3V makes a better choice for me.

There is some disagreement out there in the innerwebs about the toughness of AEBL with some claiming it is very tough. It is relatively tough. It is nowhere near Delta 3V. You will never break a Delta 3V knife in anything remotely resembling normal use including moderate prying or whacking it with a wooden baton. The same is not always true for AEBL. It is tough but your margin for error is less with AEBL.

Yeah, we're running the AEBL and D3V the same. They're HRC 60.5, ~.018" before sharpening, 20DPS, 6.2 ounce, 4.5" blade length, 9.125" total length

I don't care what steel costs, the cost of the steel amounts to little more than a rounding error. I'm going to use the best material available for an application, cost doesn't figure into it.

I also don't care much about what steels are fashionable at the moment.

People might think I need my head examined for choosing AEBL because it does not have some of the pedigree of other particle super steels, but I have selected it because of its combination of superior edge stability and retention, good toughness, and decent stain resistance.

The AEBL is aimed at jarheads, not knife nuts. The Elmax is equally tough and has better wear resistance, but in rough use (clacking it against hard stuff) it goes dull just as fast as AEBL and the average enlisted man can't sharpen it. It's a matter of edge stability vs wear resistance. The AEBL performs better in edge stability and is easy to sharpen and makes a better choice for someone who wants a tough low-maintenance knife.

Our HT for AEBL is multi step and involves complex cryo and shares many similarities with the Delta protocol. We did make an effort to optimize it.

3V was a steel with marvelous potential that was being heat treated with a process optimized for tool and die, which has thick sections, risk of cracking and distortion, and the application calls for minimal dimensional changes. My knives are measurably longer after heat treat due to expansion from martensite, which would be a problem in tool & die. These things lead to a slow quench, intentional stabilized retained austenite and utilizing the secondary hardening hump for the T&D application it was designed for. This gives good performance in a stamping tool but a chippy mushy edge when used in a knife due to softer carbon lean martensite and areas of RA that behave like the perforations in a sheet of postage stamps. So you end up with a steel that will tolerate rough use except the edge would go dull from poor edge stability. 10-15 years ago I was among a few makers buking the trend and utilizing heat treats that differed greatly from the data sheets. I used to get called out for blasphemy. I started with D2 but gravitated to 3V due to a better balance of properties.

3V is a complex steel with complex interactions. For example, an attempt to use a low temp tweak without addressing the RA through quench rate and quench depth could easily lead to worse results. The condition of the steel going into HT is an important variable. There are a couple aspects of the Delta protocol that are not intuitively obvious and work for 3V but not D2. I tweaked 3V over the course of several years before finally going through the laborious process of identifying and evaluating the effect of minor changes to a bunch of interconnected variables. I started having the steel made specifically for me buying entire "melts" and owning the entire heat lot. At this point I felt comfortable saying that my 3V with my HT is demonstrably different (and better) than the industry standard. They're really not the same thing. It is changed (Delta). So I added the Delta prefix to differentiate it from my earlier work and from other people's 3V. This was important because a lot of people had preconceived notions about the alloy and its ability to shrug off damage from rough use. I didn't want my work pre-judged from people's experience with the alloy from other makers. This is why it was named.

AEBL is a relatively simple steel. I'm not doing anything revolutionary with it. Doing a competent job on AEBL isn't rocket science. There is some low hanging fruit and I've picked it. That doesn't warrant a special name.

 

[Sagemode]

Rather than re-posting facts from others I will address some of the things I have experienced with the two. Hands down the D-3v is tougher and will keep an edge in a contest to do massive amounts of cutting at one sitting. If I had to cut a rope 300 times or open 300 boxes by slashing them open then take the D-3V. If I am around water and I don't like to or unable to clean the knife every 20 mins I will take the AEB-L. We all forget about atmospheric corrosion or other caustic elements including blood. When steel gets wet and dries there is rust forming on the edge and it is eating at your edge. This is why your kitchen knife dulls faster than we like.

For me AEB-L when done right is like O1 or 1095 in terms or getting it re-provisioned edge and holds up to abuse on par with A2 and 52100 with the added benefit of being stainless. I know the K2 carbides is tougher and the Cr. is around 13% but it really acts like 17% to the structure of optimal heat treat that true smiths know how to do. I can hit bone with AEB-L and it not chip. Why anyone would want to chop cinder-blocks and nails in nature to prove how tough their tool is not wise. Over time the repeated impact will weaken the knife and it may fail "although unlikely" when you need it. Wood is not as tough as steel but have you seen what it does to a car upon impact. Now think of you knife hitting that wood over and over. So if want to baton wood like no tomorrow then get the D-3v but don't think that you can't do it withing reason with AEB-L either but I am not going to make it a job with my knife to find out how long it will take to fail.

We talk about survival situations like they happen all the time. Most of us won't be stuck so far out with just a knife that we will die due to the steel we choose. Go make some memories and enjoy your product if either last 5 years and they will then you got what you paid for. There are some that think they are in AK so far back that their knife has to process trees and be used to climb mountains and then repel from the rope tied to their knife in order to just buy a knife.

I want a knife to clean fish & game and sharpen a stick or make a fire now and then. I am not buying a pry bar to go into the mountains to bust rocks and chop the forest down and then turn it into pretty sticks to start or maintain a fire. I wont even begin to say how many calories it would take to do all that. If you go into the wild with only a knife and expecting to survive or thrive then you will most likely die. Even people on the Alone show had 10 items in addition to the ones provided for them and they all had to come home in less than 4 months. Simply put if you have question ask Nathan and he will guide you to the proper choice. I have no issues with either steel and for me I like the AEB-L because it sharpens easier for me and is plenty tough. If I had to use my knife to cut fuel cans to fashion containers then yes I would take the D3V

 

[Hard Knocks]

Rather than re-posting facts from others I will address some of the things I have experienced with the two. Hands down the D-3v is tougher and will keep an edge in a contest to do massive amounts of cutting at one sitting. If I had to cut a rope 300 times or open 300 boxes by slashing them open then take the D-3V. If I am around water and I don't like to or unable to clean the knife every 20 mins I will take the AEB-L. We all forget about atmospheric corrosion or other caustic elements including blood. When steel gets wet and dries there is rust forming on the edge and it is eating at your edge. This is why your kitchen knife dulls faster than we like. For me AEB-L when done right is like O1 or 1095 in terms or getting it re-provisioned edge and holds up to abuse on par with A2 and 52100 with the added benefit of being stainless. I know the K2 carbides is tougher and the Cr. is around 13% but it really acts like 17% to the structure of optimal heat treat that true smiths know how to do. I can hit bone with AEB-L and it not chip. Why anyone would want to chop cinder-blocks and nails in nature to prove how tough their tool is not wise. Over time the repeated impact will weaken the knife and it may fail "although unlikely" when you need it. Wood is not as tough as steel but have you seen what it does to a car upon impact. Now think of you knife hitting that wood over and over. So if want to baton wood like no tomorrow then get the D-3v but don't think that you can't do it withing reason with AEB-L either but I am not going to make it a job with my knife to find out how long it will take to fail. We talk about survival situations like they happen all the time. Most of us won't be stuck so far out with just a knife that we will die due to the steel we choose. Go make some memories and enjoy your product if either last 5 years and they will then you got what you paid for. There are some that think they are in AK so far back that their knife has to process trees and be used to climb mountains and then repel from the rope tied to their knife in order to just buy a knife. I want a knife to clean fish & game and sharpen a stick or make a fire now and then. I am not buying a pry bar to go into the mountains to bust rocks and chop the forest down and then turn it into pretty sticks to start or maintain a fire. I wont even begin to say how many calories it would take to do all that. If you go into the wild with only a knife and expecting to survive or thrive then you will most likely die. Even people on the Alone show had 10 items in addition to the ones provided for them and they all had to come home in less than 4 months. Simply put if you have question ask Nathan and he will guide you to the proper choice. I have no issues with either steel and for me I like the AEB-L because it sharpens easier for me and is plenty tough. If I had to use my knife to cut fuel cans to fashion containers then yes I would take the D3V

Hi man. Just some constructive criticism that I hope doesn't hit you the wrong way, as it's meant to be helpful and not overly critical............throw some page breaks in your text to make it easier on your readers.

Even if you simply hit 'return/enter' every few sentences to break it up would be helpful. Otherwise the information just gets lost in the wall of text. Anyway, take the advice for what it's worth and in the spirit it's offered. Cheers.

 

[Hard Knocks]

Sagemode said:

"Rather than re-posting facts from others I will address some of the things I have experienced with the two:

Hands down the D-3v is tougher and will keep an edge in a contest to do massive amounts of cutting at one sitting. If I had to cut a rope 300 times or open 300 boxes by slashing them open then take the D-3V. If I am around water and I don't like to or unable to clean the knife every 20 mins I will take the AEB-L.

We all forget about atmospheric corrosion or other caustic elements including blood. When steel gets wet and dries there is rust forming on the edge and it is eating at your edge. This is why your kitchen knife dulls faster than we like. For me AEB-L when done right is like O1 or 1095 in terms or getting it re-provisioned edge and holds up to abuse on par with A2 and 52100 with the added benefit of being stainless.

I know the K2 carbides is tougher and the Cr. is around 13% but it really acts like 17% to the structure of optimal heat treat that true smiths know how to do. I can hit bone with AEB-L and it not chip. Why anyone would want to chop cinder-blocks and nails in nature to prove how tough their tool is not wise. Over time the repeated impact will weaken the knife and it may fail "although unlikely" when you need it. Wood is not as tough as steel but have you seen what it does to a car upon impact. Now think of you knife hitting that wood over and over. So if want to baton wood like no tomorrow then get the D-3v but don't think that you can't do it within reason with AEB-L either but I am not going to make it a job with my knife to find out how long it will take to fail.

We talk about survival situations like they happen all the time. Most of us won't be stuck so far out with just a knife that we will die due to the steel we choose. Go make some memories and enjoy your product if either last 5 years and they will then you got what you paid for. There are some that think they are in AK so far back that their knife has to process trees and be used to climb mountains and then repel from the rope tied to their knife in order to just buy a knife. I want a knife to clean fish & game and sharpen a stick or make a fire now and then. I am not buying a pry bar to go into the mountains to bust rocks and chop the forest down and then turn it into pretty sticks to start or maintain a fire. I wont even begin to say how many calories it would take to do all that. If you go into the wild with only a knife and expecting to survive or thrive then you will most likely die. Even people on the Alone show had 10 items in addition to the ones provided for them and they all had to come home in less than 4 months.

Simply put if you have question ask Nathan and he will guide you to the proper choice. I have no issues with either steel and for me I like the AEB-L because it sharpens easier for me and is plenty tough. If I had to use my knife to cut fuel cans to fashion containers then yes I would take the D3V"

 

[Elgatodeacero]

Isn’t this thread really just a long winded way of asking CPK to give us some Magnacut?

 

[Blues]

Isn’t this thread really just a long winded way of asking CPK to give us some Magnacut?