Are knives weapons, or are they tools?

[Londinium Armoury]

I just stumbled upon an interesting discussion in one of the cold steel threads between a few people. They were discussing this topic, are knives weapons, some argue no, they are tools that can be used as weapons, and some argued yes they are weapons.
I figured it would be a good idea to move the discussion to its own thread.
So here is my stance and you can say somewhat experienced explanation and break down of the topic.
Knives are tools, and knives are weapons, and sometimes they are both, and it is all depending on the intended design and use for the specific knife.
I will give some examples and explain exactly when a knife is a weapon and when a knife is a tool and when they become multi purpose.
First you have dedicated tool blades that are intended to be used only as tools, you have your job specific knives like Stanley blades, box cutters, chef knives, medical scalpels, bushcraft knives, electricians knives etc. These blades are designed with a very specific user in mind in line with specific trades and tasks.
Then you have general use pocket knives designed to be carried by members of society without a specific task or occupational function in mind, to take care of daily tasks and general "EDC" duties. Knives in this catagory are things like SAK's, Slip joints, basic shaped locking blades and fixed blades, or what we call EDC knives in the modern world.
Then you have dedicated weapons and fighting knives and also daggers, these are designed to kill people, be it in ancient military side arm form, modern self defence blades, or blades to settle disputes in honour based cultures (eg Jimbiya dagger.) Knives in this catagory come in all shapes and sizes, from very long Khyber knives of the middle east, to gentlemans stiletto daggers of the 17th century Europe. All the way up to Bowie knives of England and America, to the KA-BAR 1271 fighter. These are primarily designed as weapons and not as working tools, many other knives from many other cultures can be found.
Then you have the multi purpose weapon and tool knives, which were designed to double up as both weapons and tools, like the Kukhri, which is perfectly suited for both chopping down small trees and clearing camp, to fighting in hand to hand combat.
Knives are just tools, knives are just weapons, and sometimes they are both, it really depends on why the knife was designed and what it's intended application is.

 

[Wannabe Rambo Guy]

I use em as tools. Butchering, opening cans and small packages while camping, cutting up whatever needs to be cut up, etc. I mean.. anything can be called and used as a weapon. Look at your shoe laces right now lol! It's just that I do see them as something that can be used in self defense and as a weapon.. but imo that is definitely the last resort if need be. The end up in the "tool" category all day and night for me.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I use em as tools. Butchering, opening cans and small packages while camping, cutting up whatever needs to be cut up, etc. I mean.. anything can be called and used as a weapon. Look at your shoe laces right now lol! It's just that I do see them as something that can be used in self defense and as a weapon.. but imo that is definitely the last resort if need be. The end up in the "tool" category all day and night for me.

That's where the difference lies though, it's not really about improvising, anything can be an improvised weapon. Some knives were designed and created with the sole intention of being just a weapon. It's exactly the same with axes, you have an axe that was designed to chop a tree down and that is a felling axe, and you have axes that were designed to cut humans down for example the Danish war axe. It's not a matter of the Danes using felling axes as improvised weapons of war, they designed those axes specifically for fighting and they are very different objects, a heavy felling axe is simply too cumbersome and not weighted with correct P.O.B to be an effective weapon, and the Danish war axe likewise is not suited for felling trees as they are much thinner behind the edge and much more easy to strike with.
The same goes for knives and daggers designed for fighting, they aren't improvised last ditch tools that were pulled out, they were designed, redesigned and tested by fighters and blacksmiths to perform well as weapons.

 

[JAM]

Anything can be used as a weapon, sure. Weapons are tools.

Take a picture of a Buck 119 and a picture of a wrench and ask random people which one is a weapon or which one is a tool. We all know what they will say is which and why.

If you are pulled over by a cop and he asks if you have any weapons on you and you have a 3" folder clipped to your pocket you are going to say yes. We all know why. If you say no and you are asked to step out and he sees the clip he'll be pissed. Because you lied. You can say "I never thought of it as a weapon" but he knows you lied, you know you lied, we all know you lied and we all know why.

A wrench, hammer, or ball point pen can be used as a weapon. But if you ask random people to name 3 weapons the words "gun" and "knife" will be the first 2 99% of the time. Hammer, club, bat, whatever can take turns as 3rd but we all know knives are weapons. We all know why.

You can use a ball point pen as a weapon and you can use a knife as a tool. But you can take one on an airplane or into a courtroom and not the other. We all know which one and why.

People have used knives as weapons since they figured out how to knap flint or obsidian into one. The materials and form have been improved as time went on but they have been used as weapons for thousands of years every day everywhere.

Insisting they "are not weapons" is asinine semantics. We all know why. Because they ARE weapons.

 

[KenHash]

In a practical sense knives are both tools and weapons. As are firearms, axes, automobiles, screwdrivers, hammers, fire, ad infinitum. It's a matter of how and for what purpose something is used.
In a legal sense though knives are considered weapons in just about any jurisdiction in any place on this planet. This may be because of the very long history of humans everywhere using bladed weapons.

 

[Hal]

A knife is a tool.

A weapon is also a tool.

 

[smkinva]

Anything can be a weapon. The use of something is up to the user. For example you can pet the dog with your hand or you could smack the dog.

 

[GIRLYmann]

lol! imo this is really a topic meant for
law makers of the day to chew on.
its up to them to clearly define when something is to be legally declared "a weapon" from time to time,
beyond any reasonable doubt,
the final say of a civilised nation
so iit is to for the courts of law to decide if
an object has been turned into a weapon
where legal disputes arise...
but i am of the opinion that all are tools.
purpose built to make life easier.
however the problem arises when some
object turns dual purpose.
if we step back in time, an edge tool
would have been used for the purpose
of basic survival.
hence a stone knife would have been
a tool for hunting, a tool for killing,
a tool for butchering game.
the idea of using weapons againsts fellow
human being was to protect self interest.
self preservation created the idea of weaponizing tools.
so at some point in time some guy
decides to try his hand at creating
edge weapons.
the general idea would have been to
physically create a tool for devastation.
it entails developing effectivness
of an edged tool in order
to maximize a blow, a cut, a thrust.
hence the dawn of the edge weapon.
unfortunately, it has become exceeding
complex to guide human behaviour within
a governed population that is hungry for
terratorial and material gains.
i m afraid we have seen ordinarity tools
turned into weapons on a marked increase
even when true edge weapon may have been unavailable for ages to the ordinary citizen. thus, even the sale of kitchen knives
are regulated in some cities. time will tell if
this signals the eventual future of all knives
as a whole be deemed as weapons...

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I would say that it's not the user who gets to decide the intended function of the object, it's the designer and maker of the object. Being used as a weapon and being designed as a weapon are quite different.
There are differences between weapons and work tools even though work tools can be used as weapons, they are not optimized and designed to be specialized dedicated weapons.
People can get caught up in legal definitions, and society and its perception of something, instead of looking at intended function of an object and what it was designed to do. If you showed a modern city dweller a heavy felling axe and asked if that is a weapon they would probably say yes. If you went back to the migration period in Scandinavia and showed somebody a large heavy felling axe, they would most likely say no thats a felling axe not a fighting axe, a war axe is much different to that.
The same way a light practice bow is not a medieval war bow, one was made for target shooting and the other was made as a weapon of war. Sure you can use the 15 lb target bow to shoot at people, but it's not designed as a weapon of war the draw weight is simply too low.
A 2 inch blade traditional slipjoint is simply not a designed weapon, but a Khyber knife is made specifically to kill people. One was designed as a weapon and the other was not.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

A knife is a tool.

A weapon is also a tool.

Yes this is the point, a weapon is a type of tool, and it is not the same as a utility tool, a tool is any object, device or machine that people use for a task. A weapon tool is something that was specifically designed to harm and kill.

 

[Trailer_Ape]

I would say that it's not the user who gets to decide the intended function of the object, it's the designer and maker of the object. Being used as a weapon and being designed as a weapon are quite different.
There are differences between weapons and work tools even though work tools can be used as weapons, they are not optimized and designed to be specialized dedicated weapons.
People can get caught up in legal definitions, and society and its perception of something, instead of looking at intended function of an object and what it was designed to do. If you showed a modern city dweller a heavy felling axe and asked if that is a weapon they would probably say yes. If you went back to the migration period in Scandinavia and showed somebody a large heavy felling axe, they would most likely say no thats a felling axe not a fighting axe, a war axe is much different to that.
The same way a light practice bow is not a medieval war bow, one was made for target shooting and the other was made as a weapon of war. Sure you can use the 15 lb target bow to shoot at people, but it's not designed as a weapon of war the draw weight is simply too low.
A 2 inch blade traditional slipjoint is simply not a designed weapon, but a Khyber knife is made specifically to kill people. One was designed as a weapon and the other was not.

Legally, the user does determine classification. In FL (no, im not there anymore) a screwdriver is just a screwdriver...... until you pry a door. Now, you're not only charged with burglary but also possession of burglary tools.

I believe knives performs tasks. Sometimes that task is opening a box. Sometimes it is cutting a steak (my favorite). Sometimes it is destroying human tissue, to stop someone's actions. Certain knives are designed more specifically to particular tasks (steak knife) but most knives can be used for tasks other than what they were intended. "Aggravated Battery" has to involve either (1) permanent disfigurement or (2) a "deadly weapon". Stab someone with a steak knife and see if that doesn't qualify as a deadly weapon..... yet it doesn't while it is in the kitchen drawer of someone on probation.

Use is everything. User decides (legally speaking). In reality, however, my OKC EOD Karambit SUCKS for cutting steak.

I gravitate towards knives that can perform a variety of tasks. I am guessing that even the most high speed low drag operators have cut WAY MORE rope, tape, packages, etc than people BUUUUUT lets go to prison, hmmmm now there are only (realistically) TWO cutting tasks - edging your hair, hurting humans. The ratio of use changed, so did the designation. It is all relative. Me personally, about 50% of my reason for carrying is for use against human threats even tho that makes up virtually none of my use. The reason is simple - failing to open a box or cut a steak will not lead to my demise, failing to resist a violent attack could.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

Legally, the user does determine classification. In FL (no, im not there anymore) a screwdriver is just a screwdriver...... until you pry a door. Now, you're not only charged with burglary but also possession of burglary tools.

I believe knives performs tasks. Sometimes that task is opening a box. Sometimes it is cutting a steak (my favorite). Sometimes it is destroying human tissue, to stop someone's actions. Certain knives are designed more specifically to particular tasks (steak knife) but most knives can be used for tasks other than what they were intended. "Aggravated Battery" has to involve either (1) permanent disfigurement or (2) a "deadly weapon". Stab someone with a steak knife and see if that doesn't qualify as a deadly weapon..... yet it doesn't while it is in the kitchen drawer of someone on probation.

Use is everything. User decides (legally speaking). In reality, however, my OKC EOD Karambit SUCKS for cutting steak.

I gravitate towards knives that can perform a variety of tasks. I am guessing that even the most high speed low drag operators have cut WAY MORE rope, tape, packages, etc than people BUUUUUT lets go to prison, hmmmm now there are only (realistically) TWO cutting tasks - edging your hair, hurting humans. The ratio of use changed, so did the designation. It is all relative. Me personally, about 50% of my reason for carrying is for use against human threats even tho that makes up virtually none of my use. The reason is simple - failing to open a box or cut a steak will not lead to my demise, failing to resist a violent attack could.

That's legal terms though, weapons have been designed and around long before there was any modern systems of law, or books of law even existed. You are right in legal terms, the main point though is design of the tool and the difference between them and classification is not a legal determination. The law is like the seasons and it changes all the time, what doesn't change is intended design elements and intended use built in by its creator. An army could march in and change the laws of a land at any given time, but a sword made 1500 years ago never changes, it was always a weapon designed to fight with back then and it will remain a weapon designed to fight with even when it's rusting away in a museum collection, even if the collector decided it's now a wall hanger exhibition.

 

[Wannabe Rambo Guy]

What's the point of this thread anyways? To distinguish that knives can be used as defense and as a tool? That's pretty common sense. Seems like this thread pretty much will go nowhere, cause where is it supposed to go anyways?

 

[Londinium Armoury]

What's the point of this thread anyways? To distinguish that knives can be used as defense and as a tool? That's pretty common sense. Seems like this thread pretty much will go nowhere, cause where is it supposed to go anyways?

After saying that you seem to have not even read the thread or the OP, because you took the opposite away from what was stated.
So this thread is needed as an education on the difference between a knife designed as a utility tool and a knife designed as a weapon for fighting with.
It's not about using a knife for 2 different things, it's about knives being designed for 2 very different tasks.
Using a utility knife as an improvised weapon is not the same as designing a weapon from the ground up to be a dedicated fighting knife. Some knives and daggers have no utility design or function built into them, and are purely made to kill humans.

 

[Wannabe Rambo Guy]

Clip point, long blade, full tang. There ya go. It's not that deep to me, but maybe that's just me. Have a great day today, fellas

 

[Easyrider]

All that I am able to add is that my CRK Mnandi is really only a tool.

 

[DangerZone98]

I would say they are primarily tools that could be used as weapons, if the need arises or IF the blade happens to be in the hands of someone up to no good. Could you use one to defend yourself? Absolutely. Are they effective battlefield implements? Depends. There's a huge difference between a highly trained Gurkha with his trusty khukuri and a mall ninja that waves around his discount $15 Wolverine claws.

Here's the ugly reality though. Framing knives as weapons in the narrative only gives the state more ammunition to ban knives. If you carry one for defense, do so with discretion and without the need to brag about it. Train with it, use it for more mundane "less tactical" tasks, enjoy it.

 

[K.O.D.]

This is a large part of why most of my folders are sub 3.6"

I don't carry or plan to use a knife as a weapon. In the last 20 years mass public opinion and perception has changed about having anything bladed on you.

In that I spend a lot of time with my sister, I've found that many of her friends are of the sheeple breed.

A few years ago I was at her house for one of my nephews birthday parties when my sister asked if I could open something for her. She knows I always have a knife. I was carrying my ZT 0095 BLK s90v. As I was opening the box, one of her friends walked in and screamed. Then proceeded to yell at me for carrying such a deadly weapon and to please put it away. My sister and I looked at her completely baffled. I tried the it's a tool not a weapon on her when I finished opening the box. Those kind of people just can't be reasoned with.

Anything can be a weapon. One of my size 14 shoes could definitely cause some damage. Hell I could kill you with a broom handle were I so inclined.

But today it's more about perception than use or intent.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I would say they are primarily tools that could be used as weapons, if the need arises or IF the blade happens to be in the hands of someone up to no good. Could you use one to defend yourself? Absolutely. Are they effective battlefield implements? Depends. There's a huge difference between a highly trained Gurkha with his trusty khukuri and a mall ninja that waves around his discount $15 Wolverine claws.

Here's the ugly reality though. Framing knives as weapons in the narrative only gives the state more ammunition to ban knives. If you carry one for defense, do so with discretion and without the need to brag about it. Train with it, use it for more mundane "less tactical" tasks, enjoy it.

Most people who are serious about carrying a SD knife would not use the SD knife for utility tasks and dull it's edge. They would carry 2 blades, one as a beater and for actual utilitarian use, and their SD knife which they keep razor sharp with a keen edge.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

This is a large part of why most of my folders are sub 3.6"

I don't carry or plan to use a knife as a weapon. In the last 20 years mass public opinion and perception has changed about having anything bladed on you.

In that I spend a lot of time with my sister, I've found that many of her friends are of the sheeple breed.

A few years ago I was at her house for one of my nephews birthday parties when my sister asked if I could open something for her. She knows I always have a knife. I was carrying my ZT 0095 BLK s90v. As I was opening the box, one of her friends walked in and screamed. Then proceeded to yell at me for carrying such a deadly weapon and to please put it away. My sister and I looked at her completely baffled. I tried the it's a tool not a weapon on her when I finished opening the box. Those kind of people just can't be reasoned with.

Anything can be a weapon. One of my size 14 shoes could definitely cause some damage. Hell I could kill you with a broom handle were I so inclined.

But today it's more about perception than use or intent.

There are quite a lot of people like that girl where I live, I know what you mean. I don't see small utility knives as weapons. When I see somebody using a work knife I think that's a utility tool. If somebody pulled out a Cold Steel Espada XL and started to cut carpet with it, or trim his work piece up, I would think hey why are you using a weapon to do that.
I think it's obvious when a knife is a weapon and when a knife is a utility tool. At my old work place everyone had to carry a knife, actually in my last 2 places of work everyone had to carry a knife as part of their kit. When I worked in logistics and we had to unload freight containers and take down pallets, you couldn't do your job unless you had a knife.
Same goes for when I was doing furniture fitting, you need your knife, and I never saw anybody pull out a bowie knife, a KA-BAR or a Cold Steel pocket sword, because those are weapons, and they are different to utility tools.
The only thing i've ever used my bowie knife for as a utility tool is breaking down fire wood for my forge, because it's faster to baton 100 bits of wood than saw them, that 15 inch blade is useful, apart from that it's a weapon, I wouldn't try to take my Bowie to work with me and start cutting pallet strapping, my boss would call me into his office and ask what the hell im doing.