Are the Vikings good swordsmen?

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Oct 20, 2000
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All I know is the Vikings had big swords. And with their burly physiques and big beard, they are a much more formidable sight than any big sword they carry.

But honestly, historical records have no accounts of them being good swordsmen. I guess one could say they were good slashers but what about sword techniques?

By the great sword of Odin, who can tell me? :D
 
I remember form a report I did for a history class at some point in school that Vikings were actually more prone to use an axe than anything else. Swords were pretty scarce, I think this was probably true for most battlefields of that area of the world for most of history. The average guy would have a mace, axe, spear, hammer or something and only the wealthy or the commanders would have swords. Whether the Vikings trained in any formal kind of martial art I could not tell you.
 
Also just as a by the by Viking swords were not really all that big. Later medieval swords were bigger.
 
By the great sword of Odin, who can tell me?

Err, Odin used a spear, Gungnir, which may give insight into the importance the vikings placed on this weapon. :)

~B
 
Golok, if you think about it, making a sword as opposed to just about any other piece of smithing is a really time consuming and difficult project, and one that is most prone to error. You are attempting to make a long and narrow piece of metal, by the time of the Vikings it was largely carburized iron, known as steel, that was to be able to take any number of repeated stresses while being unsupported all the while. Further, it could not, contrary to your impression, be too heavy. Norse sword design was actually noted for lightnesss and quickness, the image in "The 13th Warrior" being pure Hollywood horsesh*t. Most of them run in the 2-3 pound (.9K-1.36K) range and have broad fullers down both sides of the blade to make them even lighter. Now, take this long, narrow, and light piece of unsupported metal and start banging it against things, as it was intended to be used, and see how long your average piece of smithwork will last before a flaw somewhere in it causes it to break, and you may take it as a given that any flaw will show up and will cause it to break. Being a true believer in Murphy's Law and in its First Corollary, i.e., "What can go wrong will go wrong" and "Usually at the worst possible moment", I see the flaw showing up in the middle of a battle. Can you imagine how bad off you would be to be in the middle of a fight, say a holmganga duel, and have your sword break. Friends who do battle re-enacting with swords tell me that it is a really bad feeling and they are not out there with their lives hanging in the balance!

So, as you can see, sword-smithing was not a task undertaken lightly, not if the smith wished to live and to prosper. It took a great deal of skill and a great deal of time and sweat to make a sword and all of this costs, whether in barter or in coinage. That is why swords were limited to those who could afford them, the wealthy, or who could earn them, the very brave and/or the very skilled fighters, at this time. One other way you could get a sword was to scavenge it off of the battlefield or to steal it from a grave, both of which are mentioned in the Norse sagas. In any case, the number of people with swords was always more limited than Hollywood would like us to believe throughout most of the Migration Era and of the Middle Ages for this reason.

Spears and axes, however, were easy to make and almost any village smith could do so. Further, they did not require much, if any, expensive steel the way that swords did. So these were the weapons that were seen most often. A spear could be any sort of point, needing no real steel in it, attached to a long pole and was as useful in hunting as it was in fighting and an axe was an iron head with a steel edge welded into the front of it and attached to the haft. It was something with which any farmer was familiar and was necessary for working around the farm, so they were as common then as a screwdriver is now. So those were what were used most often as weapons by the majority of the men. And they were used with a wide range of skill, just as any weapon is used with a wide range of skills today. Fighting with an axe is very different from chopping down a tree with it, as fighting with a spear is very different from hunting with it. Among other things, the tree and the deer don't usually fight back. A boar or a wolf does and that is why they tended to use special spears for them, but the general run of game was hunted with plain old spears.

As to sword skills, most who had them were probably skilled in their use or they would not have lived very long with them. A sword was something that attracted the attention of others who eyed it with some interest and desire, so it probably was a good idea to know how to use it if you carried it, just as it is a good idea to know how to use any weapon that you carry today. Carrying a sword was, at the time, an advertisement of your status as a warrior and as a man of status, given the sword's value and status.

I hope that I haven't gotten too obscure with this.
 
The pattern-welded sword might have cost more than the damn boat did.

Lots of capital to tie up before an expedition when an axe might have been just as good at less than one per cent of the cost.

-Dave
 
But, DaveK, you do need to remember the status involved in carrying a sword. To do so then is like a person today driving a top of the line Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi, Lexus, or Bentley(a new one). {Parenthetical note: Please don't get me started on the question of high-priced sedans.} To do so is to make a statement of your position in society and your skill as a driver(deserved or not). With a sword, it made a statement about your position in society and about your warrior skills, but back then you had best be able to back up the latter statement.
 
Originally posted by FullerH
But, DaveK, you do need to remember the status involved in carrying a sword. To do so then is like a person today driving a top of the line Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi, Lexus, or Bentley(a new one).

yeah but i may be one of few who would rather a traditional pattern welded norse blade :p (the 8 billet core with out edge billet, hard to describe properly lol :p). cars cost too much, plus more man hours go into a sword that a car my bet is :D. but i'm sword obsessed, i would gladly go without a car for a proper norse pattern welded sword hahaha :).
 
RobertB., and any others stopping by, here is a personal favorite smith of mine to drool over, and his work won't even cost you as much as an economy car! Please do not get too pedantic over Kevin's use of the term "Damascus", please, he has had a very hard time in non-smith areas over the last couple of years. But, damn, his work is gorgeous!

http://www.cashenblades.com/
 
It is said, the old saxons were named aftter their common weapon, the "sax", which was a larger single edged knife. I never heard much about any martial arts in knife fighting exept the old saying, that the saxon invaders of Britain were killing the celtic aristocrats while debating a contract of peace. The celts were unweaponed and atacted by surprice. That´s the saying.

The old irish saying of Cu chulainn said, that Cu was tought by witches to use weapons like swords aso. Caesar told about celtic women who were fighting like hell wih fist and feets, so you might think, they got something like martial arts.

I just once heard the story of a young scandinavian (around the first millenium) who was testing his new sword. He cut down the head of one of his slaves while riding and was pretty amaced of the swords performance.

So, i supose, there might be some kind of martial art in old scandinavia, but more like "family-property". Not common. Surely it died with the people.

"Menschen sterben, Sippen sterben,
einst stirbst auch Du, eins weiss
ich das ewig bleibt, ist der Toten
Tatenruhm."

From the "Edda", but i can´t translate it.

All those, who were pointing to axes and spears, got my biggest support. Swords were usually found in aristocratic graves.
 
The History channel aired that BBC series "Arms and Armor" last year, with occasional repeats. They had a segment on the Viking's equipment and fighting style, with, as I recall, a heavy reliance on shield and spear.

Pretty good series, showing the development of weaponry through the ages, with a lot of "reinactor" footage. They show one guy doing cartwheels in full armor, dispelling the notion that a fallen, fully-armored knight was helpless.
 
I know it isn't good to get historical information from a movie :D , but years ago I saw a European film called "Revenge of the Barbarians" about a Celt who tracked and killed (with throwing knives) the Vikings that killed his parents and kidnapped his sister. The thing that surprised me was that the Vikings were not using swords but instead mainly used large knives that looked something like a barong. So I guess the part about most of them not having swords was accurate.
 
lol, well i've chatted with Kevin via PM at SFI as i truly respect him and his work...its been a great inspiration for me having the chance to learn as much as i have from him and on top of that his such a cool guy to just break the ice with in the family pub on SFI etc. i'd love to be able to get one of his swords but i cant really afford it, i am working on getting some rods of iron that have as close as i can find the same properties as norse blades that have been tested etc. its gonne be a large project but kevin has told me that he'll help me with any questions i might have...i highly recommend him to anyone after a pattern welded sword, not only is he an acceptional smith his a really nice guy. :)

there was an awesome BBC show called "meet the ancestors" and one episode they had a guy who still makes swords in the norse and saxon pattern welded fashion of twisting rods of iron etc (well if you dont know the method its really hard to explain). :)

cheers,


Robert.B

Originally posted by FullerH
RobertB., and any others stopping by, here is a personal favorite smith of mine to drool over, and his work won't even cost you as much as an economy car! Please do not get too pedantic over Kevin's use of the term "Damascus", please, he has had a very hard time in non-smith areas over the last couple of years. But, damn, his work is gorgeous!

http://www.cashenblades.com/
 
Originally posted by mwerner
The History channel aired that BBC series "Arms and Armor" last year, with occasional repeats. They had a segment on the Viking's equipment and fighting style, with, as I recall, a heavy reliance on shield and spear.

Pretty good series, showing the development of weaponry through the ages, with a lot of "reinactor" footage. They show one guy doing cartwheels in full armor, dispelling the notion that a fallen, fully-armored knight was helpless.

Be careful about the History channel. Their stuff is entertaining, but many of their "experts" are simply stage actors. There is a big difference between stage fighting and real combat. I'd say stage fighting would get you killed in combat, and real fighting techniques would leave an audience yawning. Both have their proper place and a few of the History channel episodes I've seen made little distinction between the two. Of course, the shows were still pretty good so I watched them. I'm critical, but I don't go overboard.
 
One more comment ... I don't know for sure that the Vikings had a formal martial art in place, but I have heard their fighting was quicker and had a lot more movement than the stereotypes would have us believe. I would think that a culture that put so much work into their swords would also devote a lot of time to studying their use. I saw a few blades in the Metropolitan and they were works of art. Not real fancy or gaudy, but well thought out in their construction. Those Viking craftsmen were fantastic workers in metal and wood. I prefer Japanese-styled blades for use because that's what I train with, but the pattern-welded Norse-style blades are really nice too. I've got a pattern-welded Viking-style dagger that Jim Hrisoulas made for me and I love it.
 
the norse did have certain sword styles some of which are known and taught (the huscarls group here has studied a bit into silver's swordmanship)...they knew there weapons and how to effectively use them, plus there swords IMO were the most elegant and toughest of the ancient world.
 
Well, they had many games modelled after war, as we do. Both board games and field games. Glima is a form of wrestling and grappling that dates back to the viking age.

The Berserks and Ulfhednar were bands of professional fighters who had certain shamanic touches, and the Jomsvikings (see the saga of the same name for some really entertaining battles, duels, and such)were professional mercenaries, much like the Varangian guard. SO while not all in the viking culture would be versed in arms, they had pros to handle that sort of stuff who were rasied with martial ideals, went to places to train with veterans, and fought often with wasters, which were just wooden swords, even as kids.

Professionals and vets were more likely to have swords and other expensive wargear, either bought from loot or salvaged from the battlefield.

Swords were rarely buried with folks int he earlier part of the migration age, as it was simply too valuable to bury (and if it was buried, it would be dug up by some grave robber or someone needing a goood sword (thus legends of folks entering burial mounds to get a prized sword, and even in the popular Conan movie he gets a sword form a barrow). Most swords found form the migration age and the viking age are found in bogs and rivers, and were given as offereings to gods, goddesses, or wights and vettir of the land. Often they were bent or broken to make them useless to the folk in this world, thus keeping them firmly in the ground as an offering.

So, it would be a generality to say that the vikings were good swordsman, whereas they used other weapons, and some used none. It be a similart generality to say that Asians are all Karatka or Kung Fu masters, or Buddhists.

Keith
 
Originally posted by Blop
It is said, the old saxons were named aftter their common weapon, the "sax", which was a larger single edged knife. I never heard much about any martial arts in knife fighting exept the old saying, that the saxon invaders of Britain were killing the celtic aristocrats while debating a contract of peace. The celts were unweaponed and atacted by surprice. That´s the saying.

The old irish saying of Cu chulainn said, that Cu was tought by witches to use weapons like swords aso. Caesar told about celtic women who were fighting like hell wih fist and feets, so you might think, they got something like martial arts.

I just once heard the story of a young scandinavian (around the first millenium) who was testing his new sword. He cut down the head of one of his slaves while riding and was pretty amaced of the swords performance.

So, i supose, there might be some kind of martial art in old scandinavia, but more like "family-property". Not common. Surely it died with the people.

"Menschen sterben, Sippen sterben,
einst stirbst auch Du, eins weiss
ich das ewig bleibt, ist der Toten
Tatenruhm."

From the "Edda", but i can´t translate it.

All those, who were pointing to axes and spears, got my biggest support. Swords were usually found in aristocratic graves.

Blop, I am sorry that I had not picked up on your reference to the Celtic swordwomen and/or shieldmaidens before this. CuChulhain was traditionally trained in weapons by Scatlach, a woman trainer who maintained a school in the Western Isles, the Hebrides, of Scotland. I would suspect that she was of one of the old druidic schools and that, combined with her warrior abilities, made her most unacceptable to the patriarchal Roman Catholic Christians who came to dominate Christianity, even in Ireland, and she was thus to become a "witch" when the legends were eventually written down. Remember that those who were doing most of the "writing down" were monks.

The role of women in Celtic culture has always fascinated me, but the problem is trying to separate the reality from various myths and from current groups' use of anything and everything "Celtic" to validate their own particular issues.
 
Of course there were "martial arts" in the Western world. Any society with a warrior tradition has refined martial arts, otherwise they would be conquered quickly by a neighbor which did. That western sword methods did not survive intact and in practice to the modern time has more to do with gunpowder and the industrial revolution than with a lack of effective techniques. Firearms supplanted swords and spears in western combat MUCH earlier than in Asia, so western swordsmanship died out as a practical matter. The only place it survived was among the cavalry, but even they gave up their swords as a practical weapon when repeating rifles and revolvers became practical.

Metalworking, especially ironworking, was mysterious among ancient peoples. Turning stones into shiny metal, and then taking that and making it soft and pliable, then changing it into something hard and capable of taking an edge was considered magic of a very high order. In the original text of Patrick's Breastplate (an ancient Irish Christian hymn) Patrick invokes God's protection from witches, druids and smiths, as their magic could come only fram the Devil. Doubtless smiths did everything in their power to keep their art mysterious and rarified since it earned them a unique place in society.

Speaking of Cu Chulain. His common name was adopted as a boy when, upon returning late from a day out, he approached the house of the smith Ullain where he had been invited to attend on the king as he visited the smith. Coming late to the gates, he found the house protected by Ullain's hound, a fierce animal trained to guard the house and kill any who might attempt to steal up on his master. The boy, intent on attending the king, killed the animal as it attacked him. Upon entering the smith asked what had happened to his hound and how it had not killed the boy. The boy admitted that he had killed the hound and, as he had nothing to pay the blood price with, offered instead to act as the smith's hound himself, thus he became Cu Chullain, the Hound of Ullain.

The story relates to the topic only in that it demonstrates the rarified company that smiths walked in in Celtic and similar Dark Ages societies.

Consider the challenges facing an ancient swordsmith and the magic he wielded in the minds of his countrymen becomes obvious. Today if I wanted to make a sword, I could buy a piece of homogenous steel of the type and grade I chose, rolled out into bars when hot, thus already aligning the crystal and grain structure to my purpose. As Angus Trim ably demonstrates, a good sword can be made by grinding this bar to proper dimensions and the by masterfully heat treating and tempering it. That is probably the most critical element in the process.

In the Dark Ages, a swordsmith would smelt ores to provide his raw materials, generating a great deal of waste in the process. Most of his materials would contain a great many impurities and flaws, that his methods would have to get rid of, not through precise control of temperatures in the furnace, but by eye and by experience, and by a great many failed attempts early on. Then, he would take wrought iron and rarer steel, and forge weld them into swords that were and are both hard at the edge and stiff, but also tough and flexible enough not to break under stress. The strengths of one material mitigating the weaknesses of the other. The level of individual skill involved is incredible, no wonder it was thought to be magic.
 
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