ARkansas "Blue-Black" stone

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Nov 20, 2004
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I know that virtually all of you have heard all about Arkansas whetstones. I have discovered that there are indeed several different grades of the novaculite. I have an older Arkansas sharpening stone that I bought from a guy who used to work for one of the companies that mined the novaculite. The stone he sold me was called a "Blue-Black" stone. It is noticably much harder than any other Arkansas Stone I have ever used or owned. It is a very good stone to put a final finish on. Have any of you ever heard of this type of stone? Ever used one?

The guy told me that this premium grade of novaculite had been pretty much mined out several years ago.
 
I don't know about a blue-black variety, but novaculite does come in a variety of grades and levels of coarse-ness.

The prehistoric indians mined and quarried novaculate, often heat-treating it before flaking it into tools. Heat-treated novaculate becomes glassy and sometimes transluscent. I've seen a hand-mined cave with the interior cave walls a glassy heat-treated novaculite. Apparantly the prehistoric people built fires in the 'cave' to heat-treat the stone prior to mining it. Not relevent to knives, but just thought I'd share a bit of info on the material.

-Bob
 
IIRC, black arkansas (hard) is a very nice fine-grit stone for final finish. There is supposed to be a clear (or near-clear) arkansas stone that is even finer...can't remember, don't quote me on it. But if it has black in it, it's a fine stone.
 
Two kinds of black arkansas. One's a sedimentary rock. Them's the good'uns. Other's a chert/flint/micro-crystalline quartz. First cousin to obsidian nearly. REALLY a translucent quartz, and not a blessed thing to do with mud no matter how squished. It's the sort of rock you'ld use to polish a scalpel edge maybe. Not worth a durn, In My Opinion, far as real world, less maybe you had some 100$ chisels. You can tell the difference right quick like, on the rocks, by grabbing that old junk dollar store sharpening stone and running hot water. Get the arkansas rock wet, a drop of detergent to cut the metal & oil, and scrub it, (couple minutes) with the cheap ol' rock. if you get mud, it's the good kind.

Guarantee you IF you have one of those 'mud' stones, stop putting oil on it yesterday.

It's a waterstone. Dress it flat, (if it isn't) by scrubbing it against a new cheap whetstone, WET (and detergent for lube, plain ol dishwashing soap is fine, you can even use the lemony fresh kind).. but pay attention. it goes way faster'n you think. (and dangit it IS too a waterstone, i have only been using em that way for about 45 years, i'm not going to change my opinion)

once it's flat, cleaned of oil residue, get a softish carbon steel knife with a medium sharp edge, and play with it a bit dry.. (Carefully, don't scratch up the rock)..

get the feel.

Then depending on your sharpening style, (free hand, or bench) .. you either put water where you can reach it.. to dip in.. or learn to spit a lot.. (yeah, really).. or stand by the sink with water at a trickle.

Now, this type stone is best used in two different ways. dry it deburrs, NOW. (once the edges are 90 degree square it will). Dry also works for flat stuff final touch, (small/medium chisels) but be CAREFUL cause this rock will gouge easy. and easier once it's cleaned of oil. a nasty scratch on the stone is about 1/10 as bad as it looks but still distressing.

But.. the REAL Fun time is with a dab of water, and a shaving sharp knife.. and you keep a bit of mud and work on the mud.

And what you can't do with a black arkansas and water you'll need green polishing compound and a good strop to do.

Honest I love these rocks, best kitchen rock on the planet short of a belgian. (a very Good belgian).. ;)
 
I used to have a small "bar" of really nice black Arkansas stone. It was originally used in a hospital to maintain microtome blades, but when they went to disposables, they no longer needed it.

I don't even know where it might be now, but it was a great tool. When I was in college, I'd use it as my last step sharpening before I became enamored of more "toothy" edges for slicing. It was a trivial task to get a Victorinox SAK sharp enough to shave my face dry without any pulling. The same went for an old balisong a cousin sent from the Philippines that was made from an old file. There was no need to even learn how to use a strop when I had that thing!

I wish I knew where it was! I've never seen a stone the same color or texture since then.
 
I use a black arkansas stone pretty often for finishing off the edge, they are great for that. The near-clear stone that Daniel mentioned is called a translucent stone and they are very expensive. They are rumored to be even finer than the black stones, but many people contend that they are pretty much the same.

The texture of the stones is based on their density, i.e. an extra fine stone is more compressed and has sedimentary diatomaceous particles packed closer together than those in a coarse stone.

A.G. Russel once wrote about weighing equally-sized pieces of translucent and black stones and found they were the same. Same density = same level of "grit" (for lack of a better word).

The price on these stones has increased dramatically over the last few years, and the rumor about them being "mined out" may or may not be true. It may be a great marketing tool to justify the price. You can certainly still find them at places like Dan's Whetstones or Hall's.

As to the oil vs water vs nothing at all controversy, you will find any number of experienced old timers who will advocate any one of these methods. The companies that sell these stones advise the use of light oil. I use the oil and it works great for me.
 
disclaimer: all opinions are honest, based on my own experience, and liable to be uninformed about Your experience. so don't count that against me.

Arkansas has rocks, in them thar hills, and always had.

Noviculite has been used to mean several things, but it's generally a class of rocks, not a single sort.

Any rock that'll cut steel has something in it harder than steel.

The belgian rocks have volcanic ash, superfine silt, and microscopic garnets.

Some few of the arkansas stones have a similar composition, but much less so and much less evenly distributed.

I have a Buck Washita stone, that's so much garnet you could cut and polish it for a (semiprecious) gemstone, in one largish streak.

Hard enough to hone a buck knife, i'll give it that. But in general a lousy stone.

The reason to use oil is it makes a lousy stone less lousy.
It doesn't rust fine steel, like water, and it protects the stone from gouges. So it's convenient for a couple reasons.

But the only reason you want oil when you're sharpening, is to make a crappy stone work a little better. Not to say you can't use it. .. you can. but it'll NEVER work better'n water on a good rock. Any good rock. (synthetics aren't rocks).

Now the first Pike stones came in two flavors. #1 & #2..

#1 stones were not labeled, they were boxed free, and the label was in the box. You had 2 good sides. They were sold as Lily White #1 Washita ..

the stones with a blemish had a label glued on the blemish side. this blemish is by todays (lower) standard irrelevant. a tiny blob of color was enough to make that the 'bad side'.

A standard (approximate) size was 8x2x1 inch for #1 stones, and more often, 6x2x1 inch (approximate) for #2 stones. These are extreme generalities and only rough guidelines.

Frequently early Pike stones were cut thicker than 1 inch.

Later stones were mined by Norton and of these, the quality was at first equal. As the easily found veins were mined out, standards of cosmetics and 'grain' (fine ness, included harder rocks, etc..) slipped.

You could still get good stones up into the 70s .. SOME times.. and even today, individual rocks may well be as good as the best ever mined.

But the AVERAGE rock has gotten trashy as heck.

And we're talking about the real true 'soft arkansas' which is a cream colored rock. Called white. Fine waterstone. ;)

Then there're other kinds of Arkansas rocks. They have Nothing to do with the Lily White, or the #1 Washita, that built the rep for Arkanas stones. The black (soft) which is anywhere from mud colored, to grey, to olive, to charcoal, to true shiny blue black .. is a slipstone. Shapeable. THE rock to work on gouges (barring belgians, again)..

It's hard'ern heck dry, dense as a bugger, a HEAVY rock for its size and almost an oily feel. you'ld not think it was sedimentary. it is a surprise to find out it's mud, squished.
I'm only calling it SOFT because it looks one heck of a lot like the flint rock that's about 4x as hard. Still black. Does Not Make Mud, Wet.

That's a variant of the translucent. Grey, White, Clear, Black, they're all the same thing. Different grades of course, just like different colors. you may find a clearish one that is great, or a black or grey.. it's THAT rock you're talking about, not the piece 6 inches away which may be junk.

But they are HARD flinty quartz composition, and it doesn't matter if you oil em, spit on em, or use em dry. They is Very Hard Rocks. You aren't gonna gouge em. Not without a deliberate malicious effort.

So color doesn't matter, only it does. Usually.

White arkansas are the standard, good as they get if they don't have inclusions. (hard specks).

Black (soft (of which some are olive, dun, brown/red, etc)) arkansas are fine polishing stones. If you use one as your main stone, you like hair splitting sharp.

Translucent (of which some are black) is WAY harder'n the other two, and aren't good for much.

They aren't agressive enough, they're TOO hard, and best place for em in in cleaning dies and fine machine tool sharpening, working with the very hardest steels.

Now they're fine rocks, don't get me wrong. I don't mean they're junk. I mean most folks don't need one for anything. You can get a ceramic stone and do the same job, nearly.. and yes, for flat chisels, the REAL good ones, ok, they have a place. But it's fersure not a kitchen stone.

So that's probably more'n you wanted to know and it's a rough overview. But one thing to count on, every rock is what it is. Reputation means nada. If you want guarantees in advance, buy a fine India stone, and that's my advice to everyone anyway. Do what you can with the synthetic.

your rocks will be glad. :thumbup:
 
Was just researching these myself. Dan's website seems to indicate that the black hard is an ultra fine where the translucent is just an extra fine, pretty much the same s a True Hard. So much conflicting info on these, some science, some myth.

I do find that on most stones oil seems to keep it from clogging up.

Sent from my LGMS769 using Tapatalk
 
Agreed ^. When you go and read on a site or call and talk with some who is actually been in the business for 30 years, you'll find much of the above conflicts with what they say. The black Arkansas IS finer than the translucent and more rare today-- hard to find. DM
 
Hi everybody.
I want to add little bit of science here.
Black and Translucent stones have equal density. It's easy to check at a weight scale. It's proven fact.
Black and Translucent stones consist of fused crystal grains with size 12-16 micron. It's complicated to check at home even with good microscope. Trust me for a second.
So are they equal? Nope. This fact can be checked at home. Put HCl acid to both stones and you will see that translucent is non-reactive, and black arkansas has a chemical reaction.
Petrographic analysis of Black and Translucent stones on a polarizing microscope shows the difference.
Translucent is pure 100% micro quartzite. It's called the matrix.
Black is 83-87% micro quartzite, but also includes soft components: calcite and graphite. Theoretically, the soft components help the matrix to refresh faster during the sharpening. This may lead to subjective conclusion that black arkansas is faster and finer.

Pictures. Have fun.
Trans
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Black
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Allow me to say, the stones density is not so easy to check. As first you need the two grade stones of equal dimensions and a certified/ calibrated digital scale that will weights to .001 pound. Which I have. Second, on the grit chart at Sharpening Made Easy site the grit of the black Arkansas is listed at 9 microns. nihonzashi.com site puts it at 10. Just saying. DM
 
Allow me to say, the stones density is not so easy to check. As first you need the two grade stones of equal dimensions and a certified/ calibrated digital scale that will weights to .001 pound. Which I have.
If you have two grade stones of equal dimensions, you can check it. My measurements show 0.5% difference between big Dan's trans and black of same size. For other manufacturers it can be not true.

Even if you have stones of different size, density formula is so simple - weight devided by volume.

Second, on the grit chart at Sharpening Made Easy site the grit of the black Arkansas is listed at 9 microns. nihonzashi.com site puts it at 10. Just saying. DM

I have petrography analysis results of 2 different samples by 2 independent certified geology labs. So I am pretty sure about scientific background. Maybe somebody else did the same and get different result. It's possible. All stones are different. However, I think 9 or 10 micron is empirical value for comparison purpose. There is no practical reason to deal with sizes of micro quartzite grains in sharpening.

Nevertheless, I agree with you that black Ark is better.
 
Good then you know the grades are based on specific gravity. Not acid or microscopic images. The weight of water vs another object at a specific temperature. So, now we need a calibrated/ certified thermometer. Which I have. Yes, weight divided by volume. But there is some error in that. Still, the two came out close.
Still, Grit ratings have some value in this discussion especially when one is shown as finer over another. Yet, results from Certified labs do carry weight. DM
 
Thanks guys for the science. So it seems having both hard black and translucent would be redundant in an Arkansas stone progression? Maybe go soft, hard, true hard and black (or translucent instead), or just soft, hard and black/translucent? I am sort of Old school on stuff and wanted a set of more traditional stones for my older knives.

Sent from my LGMS769 using Tapatalk
 
One important detail everyone has overlooked. The cutting action or material removal is directly affected by the stone surface.
Freshly cut and surfaced stones are much more aggressive than a well worn stone.
Many woodworkers will recondition their stones with diamond plates to increase material removal rate and make the stone more efficient.

Swarf and old oil will clog up the stone surface and make it rather smooth and give poor performance.

The harder stones such as black and translucent will maintain their surface for a long time before requiring resurfacing.

Regards,
FK
 
Wow! I'm blown away that you guys would pull up a thread that I launched back in 2005 :eek:. I still have that stone by the way and I still use it for extreme fine tuning of super sharp edges. The guy that I got that stone from told me that most of that top grade novaculite was mined out years ago>> but I'm having a hard time with that because I've seen vendors like Garrett Wade advertise super fine, extra hard Arkansas stone in their current catalog.

But I will say this>> It's without a doubt the most interesting of all of the Arkansas Stones I've ever owned and it will take a super sharp edge and make it sharper if held at the correct angle.

But I want to sincerely thank all you guys for the updated information about novaculite stones that you all have posted. Now I have heard about super hard Arkansas Stones discussed over at "straightrazorplace.com". Albeit with the newer, more super hard cutlery steel alloys that have hit the market I'm wondering if any Arkansas Stones have any practical use anymore? Because my M390 Spyderco Military model just laughs at Arkansas stones. Thanks again Guys :)
 
Hey I have one more question for you guys regarding some of these top grade Arkansas ( Novaculite) stones. Do any of you know where most of the top grade Novaculite stones rate on the "MOH's Hardness Scale"? Because if I remember correctly most Arkansas stones don't rate very high on the "Moh's Scale of Hardness".

I'm wondering if the better grades of Novaculite rate higher>> the ones that have the extremely fine grit rating is what I'm speaking of.

Also I heard that many of the Native American Tribes ( Indians) used Novaculite and Obsidian for making arrowheads and spear heads as well as other tools they used. Can any of you confirm that?
 
Hi,
Hey I have one more question for you guys regarding some of these top grade Arkansas ( Novaculite) stones. Do any of you know where most of the top grade Novaculite stones rate on the "MOH's Hardness Scale"? Because if I remember correctly most Arkansas stones don't rate very high on the "Moh's Scale of Hardness".

I'm wondering if the better grades of Novaculite rate higher>> the ones that have the extremely fine grit rating is what I'm speaking of.

Also I heard that many of the Native American Tribes ( Indians) used Novaculite and Obsidian for making arrowheads and spear heads as well as other tools they used. Can any of you confirm that?

Hi,
the hardness is more than 7 on the corners of the quartz crystals,
so if the "better grades" get harder or not they're all already hard enough :)
7 Mohs is more than 70 HRC


Soft Arkansas Review
Novaculite is a sedimentary rock composed of microcrystalline quartz, it is also recognized as a re-crystallized variety of chert. It is a high-purity silica, composed of more than 99 percent pure silica.
..
Arkansas stone are often promoted as being fairly soft, a common statistic is 820 HK which should not be able to cut very hard and high carbide and HSS steels. However it was readily able to cut the k390 64 HRC custom blade from Ozark Traditional Knifeworks.
..
This is the Vickers hardness which is approximately equivalent to > 70 HRC
The Quartz Page: Physical Properties
CRC Materials Science and Engineering Handbook, Fourth Edition - James F. Shackelford, Young-Hwan Han, Sukyoung Kim, Se-Hun Kwon - Google Books
Material: Silicon Dioxide (SiO2), bulk
Hardness,Knoop(KH) 710 kg/mm/mm 100g,Ceramic,parallel to optical axis CRC Materials Science and Engineering Handbook, p.474
Hardness,Knoop(KH) 790 kg/mm/mm 100g,Ceramic,normal to optical axis CRC Materials Science and Engineering Handbook, p.474
Hardness,Vickers(VH) 1260 kg/mm/mm 500g,Ceramic,parallel to optical axis CRC Materials Science and Engineering Handbook, p.474
Hardness,Vickers(VH) 1103 kg/mm/mm 500g,Ceramic,normal to optical axis CRC Materials Science and Engineering Handbook, p.474
Hardness,Vickers(VH) 1120 kg/mm/mm 500g,Ceramic CRC Materials Science and Engineering Handbook, p.474
Naniwa Superstone 400
Now there is often advocation of use of silicon carbide for grinding such steels, but in general the bond type is more important than using alumina vs silicon carbide. Silicon carbide is harder than alumina, but both are softer than vanadium carbide and harder than all the other carbides in steels
64 hrc is 800 vickers Hardness Conversion Chart - provides values for Brinell, Rockwell A, Rockwell B, Rockwell C, Rockwell D, Rockwell E, Rockwell F, Rockwell Superficial 15-N, Rockwell Superficial 30-N, Rockwell Superficial 45-N, Rockwell Superficial 30-T, Vickers 136, Shore, and tensile strength psi hardness
arkansas / Quartz (Silicon Dioxide) 820 Knoop or 800 vickers or 64.0 HRC or ~6MOHs
Crystal quartz (SiO2) and Fused Silica
Quartz (Silicon Dioxide) 1000 vickers
69 HRC is 1044 vickers
70 HRC is 1076 vickers
Quartz Corners 1181-1260 vickers or 7 - 7.5 Mohs
Tungsten Carbide 1880
Tungsten Carbide 1900
Silicon Carbide 2480
Vanadium Carbide 2660
Diamond 7000
 
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