Authentic Trade Spike Tomahawk or Ice Hatchet ?

So I ask you, does this "Ebay" Historical Spike Tomahawk look any different than the one I've posted photos of here ?

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/French-Indi...007836?hash=item54822974dc:g:qm0AAOSwEuZdFOWC

s-l1600.jpg


A little bit different (very minor) perhaps.

173900415_926778091468758_2447646714648700469_n.png
 
Hardball,in that (quite interesting) article that you posted the link to above,there's a fitting quote from Mark Miller:

"There are many, many outright fakes and honest reproductions whom sellers claim to be authentic which were made from the time that originals were to the present day.

Of the Ebay tomahawks being sold as authentic at any one time, a ‘misidentification’ rate of 99% or more is not unusual. Not all of these sellers are dishonest people . . . . [T]hese were experienced antique dealers who sold for decades & who were unable to distinguish a 30 year old tomahawk from a 300 year old one. It’s tough sometimes".

https://www.furtradetomahawks.com

As far as your specific question goes,
HARDBALL said:
So I ask you, does this "Ebay" Historical Spike Tomahawk look any different than the one I've posted photos of here ?

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/French-Indi...007836?hash=item54822974dc:g:qm0AAOSwEuZdFOWC
Click to expand...

-these two look fairly similar,though in no manner identical.

Separately from their similarity to each other,they both(to me)look to be the the product of some factory.
Maybe those were smallish factories,but they were tooled-up to do some production-scale runs;i just have that sense from their outlines and general regularity of shapes.
I.e. these did not come from a small forge or a single itinerant smith.

If you wanted to research this further,i'd recommend not leaving the word "tomahawk" out of the equation,and searching first for the Type of a trade these tools may've been made For.
Mining?Shipboard duty of whatever sort?Agricultural?
Very possibly such lines of inquiry may lead to Europe,or maybe to the earlier workings somewhere in Quebec...Somewhere,someone,was cranking these out in a fairly industrious manner
 
Hi jp,

Good suggestions. In fact (in the past) as well as present, I have searched (and continue to do so) exactly in the manner you have suggested. I find a LOT of useful information/clues this way. Oooh, rest assured, I am VERY well aware of the "quote" you mentioned (thanks for posting) as I know how many out and out right FAKES exist in the World of "Historical" Artifacts. Oooh, I believe I found a reference to my earlier comment regarding "Political Correctness". If you go to this link, about HALF way down the page, there is a Photo of a Spike Hatchet with the caption : R.I. - Forged steel ORIGINAL HAFT with E.C. stamped.......etc.
Beneath that photo, is some rather interesting (VERY) interesting copy! Do check it out! I want to dig deeper into this information.

https://tatcalite.tripod.com/id10.h..._vGrpBZU3rbT9-_SJWryVv9JRF0bN4xdpHiDEF7C8FnjU

HARDBALL
 
Last edited:
It looks like an authentic spike tomahawk. For it’s length, it is on the long side, but the majority of spike tomahawks were hand forged on the frontier, and the dimensions and designs are all over the place. Definitely seen longer ones than that. The weight is seems way too low for an ice chest hatchet—never heard of ice chest hatchet heads being so light. But 0.8 lbs is within the weight limits of many documented spike tomahawks. Also the chopping blade is very “square” in the edge profile—common on spike tomahawks with sub-2” chopping blades. Flesh and bone is breached easily with such a narrow, concentrated edge. Most ice chest hatchets I’ve seen examples of, even with narrow chopping edges, have a very rounded edge geometry.

I’d recommend reaching out to Mark Miller directly from his site. I spoke to him over a year ago, so hopefully he is still alive and active. I hope he is doing well. Unfortunately Jack Vargo passed away about a year ago, so Mark Miller is the only credible resource I know of that could weigh in on whether you have an authentic tomahawk or an antique tool. I’m sure Mark charges a fee but when you have rare experience like him, then you don’t do it for free.

And just to respond to those that dismiss the tomahawk’s historic role. The tomahawk was a very valued and common weapon and tool. The spike tomahawk in particular has a lot more capabilities in bushcraft and combatives—if done right it can fulfill the role of the hammer poll tomahawk plus do a whole lot more. Very underrated by people who only held modern made, mass produced examples or reproductions that lost many historic design details. I was doubtful of its capabilities until I started doing research and was surprised both by what’s in historic accounts plus the what you can do with one these when it’s in your hands. Also there are some tweaks to make them very easy to comfortably carry in our modern age (that’s my speciality).

Y’all take care,

Zac



HARDBALL said:
Hi all,

Some of you might recall this (now edited) old post for about five years ago regarding what I believe might be an authentic "Trade ? Indian Spike Tomahawk".....this Spike Tomahawk head was no doubt unearthed some time ago. The Tomahawk's Eye hole was filled with Earth that was really packed as hard as cement. I removed all the dirt. This Tomahawk has some little spots of rust and is very evenly pitted. I am at a loss trying to figure out if this Tomahawk is an authentic Spike Tomahawk or a vintage (circa 1880's) Ice Hatchet/Axe. According to information at "Fur and Trade" this Spike Tomahawk appears to have features of both an authentic Spike Tomahawk as well as a Spike Ice Hatchet/Axe. This old Spike Tomahawk Head measures just a tad over 9.75" in OAL. The RECTANGULAR Spike is about four inches long (from the Eye) and the Blade length measures 4.25" (from Eye). The blade width is approx. 1 3/4" wide. However, unlike a Spike Ice Axe, this Tomahawk Head weights only 0.8 ounces. I purchased this Spike Tomahawk Head from a Junk Shop owner along the Maine Coast (Sagadahoc Country). I "suspect" this Head might of been un-Earthed from this general area.

173939851_1128563714222056_3578241051798837914_n.png




HARDBALL
Click to expand...
 
HARDBALL said:
If you go to this link, about HALF way down the page, there is a Photo of a Spike Hatchet with the caption : R.I. - Forged steel ORIGINAL HAFT with E.C. stamped.......etc.
Beneath that photo, is some rather interesting (VERY) interesting copy! Do check it out! I want to dig deeper into this information.
Click to expand...

Hardball,thank you for that read.I see what you mean,unfortunately i found much of the information on that site much less than credible:

One of the things I've learned while focusing on spike axes is while certainly the spike axe design is most commonly associated with New England and the time from roughly 1740-1790 they were produced well into the eighteen hundreds and at times in considerable quantities. However manufacturing technique and materials changed after 1820 with many made of cast steel as opposed to wrought iron. Many of these have makers marks although around 1860 most of these company's started to omit their logos/ trade marks as to avoid being branded as "Selling arms to the Indians" This might have been bad business in the wake of events such as Cluster's last stand etc. Also, while there was an overall trend of shortening the spike in later years, some of these cast steel axes have , thin, lightweight heads with very long, flat, needle tip spikes. A sort of knife on a stick arrangement\

First of all,the author is entirely in error by supposing that "cast steel" refers to the Method by which axes were made-it does not."Cast steel" was one of the earlier forms of production of quality HC steel by a crucible-based method,and was used solely to edge the tool.

The "PC" part doesn't sound plausible either(not to me,i'm sorry).Especially after 1860-ies,where most tribes were entirely subjugated,living in destitution on a rez,those few "uppity" remnants were not very likely to represent enough of a market-share to cause any such economic event,not in "tomahawk" sales,for crissakes! All the potential Custer-hunters were after rifled And breech-loading firearms by then,not axes...

And right above that there's a picture,and a Particularly goofy,misleading paragraph:

Two common post 1800 Western patterns. Top axe is unmarked
and has been painted red at some point.
Bottom is one of the famous "Underhill Edged tool co" spike
tomahawks
It has been well documented as to the use of spike tomahawks
in the second half of the 1900th century western plains. And odds
were good that from 1830-1890 many of the axes being used were
these patterns and or made by these companies.

:)

The two axes(now this is me speaking,the silly comp has changed my font,and i'm too stupid to change it back...) used as supposed example of some clearly imagined "pattern" are as clearly produced commercially,and for a specific task.
The top one is obviously a fire-axe!:)...("...has been painted red at some point..."-amazing!:)).

The second one is from a very "modern",one may say,tool manufacturer,and if we dig up their catalog i'm Sure it'll tell us what they produced that tool For(and i doubt it'd say "Custer basher",and Not because it'd be un-pc to do so:)

That site is cool as it has many photos of what people for whatever reason call "spike-hawks".Most were not forged by hand,they're clearly leveled and ground;a few have a hammer-stule extended socket(something one never bothers with in a small,one-horse forge),and the author's attribution of many is highly questionable in many respects.
(all of the above my opinion solely).

 
Last edited:
burninatorzw said:
It looks like an authentic spike tomahawk. For it’s length, it is on the long side, but the majority of spike tomahawks were hand forged on the frontier, and the dimensions and designs are all over the place. Definitely seen longer ones than that. The weight is seems way too low for an ice chest hatchet—never heard of ice chest hatchet heads being so light. But 0.8 lbs is within the weight limits of many documented spike tomahawks. Also the chopping blade is very “square” in the edge profile—common on spike tomahawks with sub-2” chopping blades. Flesh and bone is breached easily with such a narrow, concentrated edge. Most ice chest hatchets I’ve seen examples of, even with narrow chopping edges, have a very rounded edge geometry.

I’d recommend reaching out to Mark Miller directly from his site. I spoke to him over a year ago, so hopefully he is still alive and active. I hope he is doing well. Unfortunately Jack Vargo passed away about a year ago, so Mark Miller is the only credible resource I know of that could weigh in on whether you have an authentic tomahawk or an antique tool. I’m sure Mark charges a fee but when you have rare experience like him, then you don’t do it for free.

And just to respond to those that dismiss the tomahawk’s historic role. The tomahawk was a very valued and common weapon and tool. The spike tomahawk in particular has a lot more capabilities in bushcraft and combatives—if done right it can fulfill the role of the hammer poll tomahawk plus do a whole lot more. Very underrated by people who only held modern made, mass produced examples or reproductions that lost many historic design details. I was doubtful of its capabilities until I started doing research and was surprised both by what’s in historic accounts plus the what you can do with one these when it’s in your hands. Also there are some tweaks to make them very easy to comfortably carry in our modern age (that’s my speciality).

Y’all take care,

Zac
Click to expand...
The geometry brings up a very good point and the only ice axes I have seen (from pictures) do indeed have a rounded bit. Do they all?
 
burninatorzw said:
It looks like an authentic spike tomahawk. For it’s length, it is on the long side, but the majority of spike tomahawks were hand forged on the frontier, and the dimensions and designs are all over the place. Definitely seen longer ones than that. The weight is seems way too low for an ice chest hatchet—never heard of ice chest hatchet heads being so light. But 0.8 lbs is within the weight limits of many documented spike tomahawks. Also the chopping blade is very “square” in the edge profile—common on spike tomahawks with sub-2” chopping blades. Flesh and bone is breached easily with such a narrow, concentrated edge. Most ice chest hatchets I’ve seen examples of, even with narrow chopping edges, have a very rounded edge geometry.

I’d recommend reaching out to Mark Miller directly from his site. I spoke to him over a year ago, so hopefully he is still alive and active. I hope he is doing well. Unfortunately Jack Vargo passed away about a year ago, so Mark Miller is the only credible resource I know of that could weigh in on whether you have an authentic tomahawk or an antique tool. I’m sure Mark charges a fee but when you have rare experience like him, then you don’t do it for free.

And just to respond to those that dismiss the tomahawk’s historic role. The tomahawk was a very valued and common weapon and tool. The spike tomahawk in particular has a lot more capabilities in bushcraft and combatives—if done right it can fulfill the role of the hammer poll tomahawk plus do a whole lot more. Very underrated by people who only held modern made, mass produced examples or reproductions that lost many historic design details. I was doubtful of its capabilities until I started doing research and was surprised both by what’s in historic accounts plus the what you can do with one these when it’s in your hands. Also there are some tweaks to make them very easy to comfortably carry in our modern age (that’s my speciality).

Y’all take care,

Zac
Click to expand...



Hi Zac,

Thank you kindly for your thoughts/comments/suggestions regarding my post/thread. Oooh Zac, please note (I'm so sorry for the confusion). I attempted to correct the old "typo" regarding the WEIGHT of this "Spike Head". The weight you mentioned is IN-correct. The CORRECT weight of this old "Spike Head" is as follows :

12.50 ounces
0.780 lbs.
354g
0.354kg

Thanks again Zac for all your help.

HARDBALL
 
jake pogg said:
Hardball,thank you for that read.I see what you mean,unfortunately i found much of the information on that site much less than credible:

One of the things I've learned while focusing on spike axes is while certainly the spike axe design is most commonly associated with New England and the time from roughly 1740-1790 they were produced well into the eighteen hundreds and at times in considerable quantities. However manufacturing technique and materials changed after 1820 with many made of cast steel as opposed to wrought iron. Many of these have makers marks although around 1860 most of these company's started to omit their logos/ trade marks as to avoid being branded as "Selling arms to the Indians" This might have been bad business in the wake of events such as Cluster's last stand etc. Also, while there was an overall trend of shortening the spike in later years, some of these cast steel axes have , thin, lightweight heads with very long, flat, needle tip spikes. A sort of knife on a stick arrangement\

First of all,the author is entirely in error by supposing that "cast steel" refers to the Method by which axes were made-it does not."Cast steel" was one of the earlier forms of production of quality HC steel by a crucible-based method,and was used solely to edge the tool.

The "PC" part doesn't sound plausible either(not to me,i'm sorry).Especially after 1860-ies,where most tribes were entirely subjugated,living in destitution on a rez,those few "uppity" remnants were not very likely to represent enough of a market-share to cause any such economic event,not in "tomahawk" sales,for crissakes! All the potential Custer-hunters were after rifled And breech-loading firearms by then,not axes...

And right above that there's a picture,and a Particularly goofy,misleading paragraph:

Two common post 1800 Western patterns. Top axe is unmarked
and has been painted red at some point.
Bottom is one of the famous "Underhill Edged tool co" spike
tomahawks
It has been well documented as to the use of spike tomahawks
in the second half of the 1900th century western plains. And odds
were good that from 1830-1890 many of the axes being used were
these patterns and or made by these companies.

:)

The two axes(now this is me speaking,the silly comp has changed my font,and i'm too stupid to change it back...) used as supposed example of some clearly imagined "pattern" are as clearly produced commercially,and for a specific task.
The top one is obviously a fire-axe!:)...("...has been painted red at some point..."-amazing!:)).

The second one is from a very "modern",one may say,tool manufacturer,and if we dig up their catalog i'm Sure it'll tell us what they produced that tool For(and i doubt it'd say "Custer basher",and Not because it'd be un-pc to do so:)

That site is cool as it has many photos of what people for whatever reason call "spike-hawks".Most were not forged by hand,they're clearly leveled and ground;a few have a hammer-stule extended socket(something one never bothers with in a small,one-horse forge),and the author's attribution of many is highly questionable in many respects.
(all of the above my opinion solely).
Click to expand...


Hi jp,

I can't say I disagree with you on many points in regards to the information presented on that site. Believe me, I take ALL of this information with a grain of Salt. There are just waaaay too many factors/variables for one to know for sure what's what. What is Authentic, what's Fake, what's misidentified, etc.
I must say though, I am enjoying the ride!

HARDBALL
 
What a great and interesting thread! Marking this for future. Thank y'all for sharing!
 
HARDBALL said:
I must say though, I am enjoying the ride!
Click to expand...

Yessir,well put!:)

Likewise here,i'm only following some vague hunches,see where it may lead us.
Some curious rabbit-trails:

Hacha de bombero antigua(vintage fireman's axe):

https://en.todocoleccion.net/antiques-technical/antigua-hacha-pica-bombero-20-
5cm-entre-puntas-380gr-info-1s~x142603058

machado de bombeiro,Portuguese fireman's axe:

https://oportunityleiloes.auctionse.../?url=/view-auctions/catalog/id/1721/?page=17
 
Also,at the bottom of this page:http://www.miningartifacts.org/toolsandhardware.html

there're a number of pick heads.

Whoever forged your tomahawk,Hardball,worked in the same style/tradition as those of the picks with pointed "lugs" come from.

That style eye is peculiar to some places in the world,while absent in others...Many of the British tools retained that style eye until very late in the game...
 
jake pogg said:
Also,at the bottom of this page:http://www.miningartifacts.org/toolsandhardware.html

there're a number of pick heads.

Whoever forged your tomahawk,Hardball,worked in the same style/tradition as those of the picks with pointed "lugs" come from.

That style eye is peculiar to some places in the world,while absent in others...Many of the British tools retained that style eye until very late in the game...
Click to expand...


Hi jp,

Funny, today I also happened to be researching "Mining Tools" and such and it appears (lol) we both found the same page/link. I saw some of the "styles" of "Pick Axe", I thought to myself, "Ummmm, I wonder if these Guys had ever made a "Spike Tomahawk" ?

http://www.miningartifacts.org/tool...ev1_9Yqnnph9D3dN82h4d71RrpZLjPbcEcUpdc3G4CyxU

Wow! I've never heard of the ROMAN DOLABRA. Style coincidence ? To the best of my knowledge, the Roman Army didn't make it to Maine.....so......
imageGen.ashx


http://www.futuremuseum.co.uk/colle...roman-army/dolabra-(roman-axe),-dumfries.aspx


Mining Spike Axe.
Antique-Gold-Coal-Miners-Pick-Primitive.jpg


HARDBALL
 
Great job on Dolabra,Hardball:)

And here's a strange deal of sorts,to do with British naval boarding axes:

"It not known when the word tomahawk came into British military terminology but contact and combat with Native Americans clearly had an effect on the weapons carried in that region. Ffoulkes notes that War Office records state that ‘the Ordnance issued 300 Tommihawks in 1761 to the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Americans’ and it also records that the 22nd Regiment adopted it as a standard sidearm in 1784. The navy adopted the term into everyday use and although referred to as a ‘pole axe’ officially, the name tomahawk was commonly used in ships’ manifests, journals and accounts and presumably in the sailors’ parlance of the day".

http://www.boardingaxe.com/british.html
 
jp said :

"Whoever forged your tomahawk,Hardball,worked in the same style/tradition as those of the picks with pointed "lugs" come from.
That style eye is peculiar to some places in the world,while absent in others...Many of the British tools retained that style eye until very late in the game..."

jp,

Man, wouldn't it be WILD if this "Spike Head" once belonged to some "English" Military Personal back in during one of the many Wars/Conflict here in Maine or better still, a "trophy" taken liberated by a Native during battle as a spoils of War! Then again, perhaps it just belonged to some old time Farmer who used the "Spike Hatchet" for some purpose in the Field. God only knows and one can only speculate. I do however like the idea of the "Native" Weapon theory lol.

Between 1675 and 1763 there was a nearly continuous series of wars in Maine between the British and the French/ Native Americans. Both groups wanted Maine's land and resources. The wars were related to conflicts in Europe at the same time. 1675-1678 The first of the New England Indian wars.

https://penobscotmarinemuseum.org/p...1678 The first of the New England Indian wars.

Oooh, the lil' "Junk Shop" where I purchased this (Earth/dirt incrusted) "Spike Tomahawk" Head years ago is located on the Maine (Mid-Coastline) and only twenty miles from Bristol, Maine (Pemaquid Peninsula) where there took place one Hell of a LOT of War! In fact, pretty much everywhere along the Mid-Coast more than likely had some War action/conflicts and/or Native/Military/Settlers/scouting/Camps/etc.

Fort William Henry[edit]
Fort William Henry was built in 1692 during King William's War. The English constructed it to defend against the French and Wabanaki Confederacy of Acadia. The English built Fort William Henry as a fortress to protect the northern boundary of New England. (Present-day Castine, Maine was an Acadian settlement, which marked the effective southern boundary of Acadia.)[5] Massachusetts government used one third of its budget to build the fort.[6]

Construction of the fort was ordered by Massachusetts Governor Sir William Phips and cost £20,000 to build. The English colonial militia leader Benjamin Church assisted in the construction.[7] The fort was built with walls that were 10 to 22 feet in height and a stone bastion which was 29 feet in height. The fort was armed with 20 cannon and a garrison of 60 soldiers.[8]

The fort was attacked by a combined force of French and Native Americans in the Siege of Pemaquid (1696). The English were forced to surrender the fort and abandon the Pemaquid area. Benjamin Church avenged the destruction of the fort with the Raid on Chignecto (1696) against Acadia.


HARDBALL
 
HARDBALL said:
I do however like the idea of the "Native" Weapon theory lol.
Click to expand...

EVERYBODY seems to like that!:)
However,you seem to also be willing to keep your mind open,as well as expend time and energy to look around at what information is available-good on you for that!


Thanks for all those Very interesting links and facts,great stuff,i wish i had the time(and computer skills) to look deeper into the history of that area.

One of the things that could possibly tell us lots are the trading company records,both HBC and whoever were their French competitors...I know that the very detailed records exist for most years that HBC was in business,i wonder what degree of detail there is as far as purchasing of their trade axes,from whom,where,what kind et c.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top