- Joined
- Nov 2, 2002
- Messages
- 497
How did the lock fail???
The Axis is such a robust lockup that I'm having a hard time imagining how a "light whack" could ever defeat it...
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is $300 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Axis Lock, Lock back, Liner lock... which is better?
- Thread starter roymail
- Start date
How did the lock fail???
The Axis is such a robust lockup that I'm having a hard time imagining how a "light whack" could ever defeat it...
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2005
- Messages
- 5,171
Some Axis locks get through QC where the bar rests too close to the end of the angled surface on the blade - sometimes the angle is off a bit, too - with the result that the lock is defeatable without much force.
There is a classic video on YouTube that shows a 710 that had this issue apparently.
I've dealt a 710 that had the issue - easy enough to fix as long as there is enough travel room in the bar slot by stoning the angled surface a small bit.
Thanks for the info, orthogonal1
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2004
- Messages
- 12,955
Any lock can defeat regardless of type. There have been a few reports of breaking of omega springs, of locks disengaging from slight spine taps and even a video or two showing that with Axis lock folders defeating. It happens with all of them. No big deal so long as you catch it and do a common sense test of the lock before trusting your fingers to it. So many locks come precarious at best out of the box that a test of the lock is advised before use. Simply hold the knife such that it can't cut you and with the blade open really put spine and tip pressure on the blade to see how the lock behaves. Tap it open with fingers out of the path of the blade and use the toe of your boot for some good taps to get an idea of if the lock is good or bad things like that. It has always been my opinion that advising that the knfie break in and that you test it for this should be labeled on the boxes or paperwork but good salesmanship dictates that you don't draw negative attention to your products.
Omega springs can break. They are small, they do move slightly but they seem so far overall to be holding up fairly well. Coil springs like the ball lock uses are probably longer lived many times over. I like the Axis design better and having steel liners over none but both are great designs.
If you were in the field or the Amazon and an omega spring broke, or heck lets say both broke the knife by design is still not worthless. The way the axis lock is built you could easily jam something in there behind it to wedge the lock pin up to stay across the blade to lock it securely and still make the knife work for you in a pinch. However, if I was going to the Amazon I'd take a RockSalt and a Pacific Salt or Salt 1 folder with me.
STR
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2003
- Messages
- 1,321
Visit the benchmade site:
www.benchmade.com
http://www.benchmade.com/about_knives/locking_mechanisms.asp
All their locks, including Linerlocks are shown with a few pictures.
Framelocks are called Monolocks there.
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2004
- Messages
- 12,955
Big difference between a spine whack and a spine tap. Whacking the folder can damage things. Just a tap like that in a real world instance when you were likely to accidentally tap it in the corner of a wall, or on a table is all it takes to be sure the lock is doing its job. Making a habit of whacking any folder just weakens the lock and does nothing to help its life expectancy.
Once its broke in and its been tested if you do your job and use it wisely, clean it and check it periodically and be sure its still working as it is supposed to just use it.
Tapping is done by holding it so its gripped but with fingers out of the path of the blade. The closer to the tip you tap the more pressure it puts on the lock so a couple light taps mid spine and tip to see how the lock does is all it should take. If it defeats its faulty and needs replaced or repaired. If it holds up its working. Then flip the folder and hold it like I did in my "Tips and Tricks" thread in my forum here in the makers section of blade forums and put some pressure on the blade open really trying to push in on the lock. If the lock moves it means it could very well move more if you were stronger. If it defeats its a bad lock and more than likely needs sent in for warranty work or replacement.
STR
Once its broke in and its been tested if you do your job and use it wisely, clean it and check it periodically and be sure its still working as it is supposed to just use it.
Tapping is done by holding it so its gripped but with fingers out of the path of the blade. The closer to the tip you tap the more pressure it puts on the lock so a couple light taps mid spine and tip to see how the lock does is all it should take. If it defeats its faulty and needs replaced or repaired. If it holds up its working. Then flip the folder and hold it like I did in my "Tips and Tricks" thread in my forum here in the makers section of blade forums and put some pressure on the blade open really trying to push in on the lock. If the lock moves it means it could very well move more if you were stronger. If it defeats its a bad lock and more than likely needs sent in for warranty work or replacement.
STR
The "spine-whack test" is holding your knife up-side-down (so the blade is up) and hitting something hard with the back of the knife (the spine). Supposedly this tests the strength of the lock....however if the lock should fail...look at where your fingers are! right in the blade's path as the knife closes.
IMO it's a pretty bad idea :thumbdn:
IMO it's a pretty bad idea :thumbdn:
Hey; thanks BigE and Blop for the links.
now for the first time ever, i get it.
i have lots of lockbacks and liner locks. but since i also have a big Classic Sebbie and an XM 18 which is my EDC, i really should have been able to figure it out on my own.
and my Wm. Henry GenTac B30 A--o, is an axis lock.
so reading the description of mechanism while examing the knife, was just the "ticket".
so now for my opinion: Framelock. i've been using my XM-18 for about 1 year now. the blade's a little beat up, but that framelock is never going to fail.
roland
now for the first time ever, i get it.
i have lots of lockbacks and liner locks. but since i also have a big Classic Sebbie and an XM 18 which is my EDC, i really should have been able to figure it out on my own.
and my Wm. Henry GenTac B30 A--o, is an axis lock.
so reading the description of mechanism while examing the knife, was just the "ticket".
so now for my opinion: Framelock. i've been using my XM-18 for about 1 year now. the blade's a little beat up, but that framelock is never going to fail.
roland
Capt. Carl
Gold Member
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2006
- Messages
- 1,626
The axis lock is simply the best lock for me.
It can make your knife a toy (it's fun to play with) but at the same time a grunt if you need to put it to real work.
I have no problem with a well made liner lock or lockback however.
It can make your knife a toy (it's fun to play with) but at the same time a grunt if you need to put it to real work.
I have no problem with a well made liner lock or lockback however.
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2007
- Messages
- 6,518
As simple as the thread subject is, this has been one of the most informative I've read on BF, for me anyway.
Hands down, my go-to type of knife for everything is the Buck 110, or clones of it. I've got 8 or 9, stashed all over in tool boxes, back-packs, etc. Everyone in the family can use it, and they're all easy to clean (I obsess over cleaning my knives).
BUT, after reading through this thread, it seems that the "axis lock" folks outnumber us "lock-back" folks roughly 3-to-1. I've got all types of knives here, and just realized - I don't own an "Axis" lock. I'm going to have to get on a pass-around and try one out.
thanks for the info, ya'll. :thumbup:
thx - cpr
Hands down, my go-to type of knife for everything is the Buck 110, or clones of it. I've got 8 or 9, stashed all over in tool boxes, back-packs, etc. Everyone in the family can use it, and they're all easy to clean (I obsess over cleaning my knives).
BUT, after reading through this thread, it seems that the "axis lock" folks outnumber us "lock-back" folks roughly 3-to-1. I've got all types of knives here, and just realized - I don't own an "Axis" lock. I'm going to have to get on a pass-around and try one out.
thanks for the info, ya'll. :thumbup:
thx - cpr
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2008
- Messages
- 91
Like you all I love the Axis lock.
I enjoy lock back and liner locks too, but the Axis lock is the easiest to use for me. Easy to whip the blade out and have a secure hold, and very easy to close the blade when I'm done.
If I was in a situation that absolutely depended on a knife not folding, I would go with a fixed blade for sure. But everything else the Axis lock would be good to go.
The only downside, if you were to be picky, is that the Axis lock knives are a bit thicker in the handle than liner lock, because of the design that requires two solid handle pieces to hold the knife in place, versus a liner lock where the handle could be part of the locking mechanism. I don't think that is too big of a negative though because the Axis locks are reasonably thin in profile.
I enjoy lock back and liner locks too, but the Axis lock is the easiest to use for me. Easy to whip the blade out and have a secure hold, and very easy to close the blade when I'm done.
If I was in a situation that absolutely depended on a knife not folding, I would go with a fixed blade for sure. But everything else the Axis lock would be good to go.
The only downside, if you were to be picky, is that the Axis lock knives are a bit thicker in the handle than liner lock, because of the design that requires two solid handle pieces to hold the knife in place, versus a liner lock where the handle could be part of the locking mechanism. I don't think that is too big of a negative though because the Axis locks are reasonably thin in profile.
Thanks to everyone for your input on this thread. It's been helpful.
As a result I still have the most confidence in the lock back design. Liner locks, while not as nifty and fun as the axis lock, seem pretty safe since they are part of the liner itself. The axis design is user friendly, functional and just fun because it allows for one handed closure. However, it's dependant on two omega springs to hold pressure on the bar.
I've been accused of over analyzing things many times. Anything mechanical can fail... I'd just prefer to reduce the likelihood of it ever happening to me. :thumbup:
As a result I still have the most confidence in the lock back design. Liner locks, while not as nifty and fun as the axis lock, seem pretty safe since they are part of the liner itself. The axis design is user friendly, functional and just fun because it allows for one handed closure. However, it's dependant on two omega springs to hold pressure on the bar.
I've been accused of over analyzing things many times. Anything mechanical can fail... I'd just prefer to reduce the likelihood of it ever happening to me. :thumbup:
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2008
- Messages
- 91
Good choice.
I don't think there is a bad choice honestly.
I compare the Axis to the M-16, where precision matters and you get a machine that is ergonomic and reliable if you maintain it.
The liner lock / lockback maybe can be thought of as the AK47, not as pretty / slick as the Axis, but reliable because it's simple.
They're all good choices for most people.
I like the Axis lock. I also like liner and frame locks as long as they are built correctly. Built right, the liner and frame lock are fine with me, and as strong a folder as I'll likely need. I also like the sliding lock in the ZT0500, and it is a VERY tough lock!
I test all my folders with the Spine-TAP test. Like STR said, it doesn't take but a light tap to see if the lock slides off the tang. I usually pad the table I'm at with a piece of thin cloth, polishing rag, and then give the back of the blade 5 rapid taps, say midway down the blade.
I test all my folders with the Spine-TAP test. Like STR said, it doesn't take but a light tap to see if the lock slides off the tang. I usually pad the table I'm at with a piece of thin cloth, polishing rag, and then give the back of the blade 5 rapid taps, say midway down the blade.
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2001
- Messages
- 32,354
Never had a lock back fail from lint or dirt in the notch?
Axis Locks are bullet proof so long as you keep the omega springs dry, what happens is the springs get damp rust/oxidize, get weak and break.
Keep it dry keep it clean and lubed and you'll be problem free.
Here are some pics for those who have no idea what an Axis Lock looks like. this one is on my old BM 730 Ares.
See where all the dirt and moisture accumulate?
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2002
- Messages
- 497
In my experience this is not the case. The delicate geometry of a good liner lock is difficult to come by in a production knife, and most (not all) of my production liner locks are untrustworthy. Furthermore, there is very little that can be done to improve the geometry of a liner/frame lock that is too short.
Technically the Axis mechanism is only dependent on ONE omega spring. The other spring is mostly redundant. If one spring breaks, the Axis may not function as smoothly as it would with two, but it WILL function (this has been verified by folks who have removed one of the springs). But yes, if both springs broke you'd need to do as STR suggests and improvise
And the benefits of one-handed closure should not be underestimated--one-handed closure might be the deciding factor between closing the knife and putting back in your pocket, or leaving it out (still-open!) while you complete whatever task is occupying your other hand (a good way to loose/damage your knife)
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2006
- Messages
- 732
I've only had my Mini-Grip since Tuesday, so I'm still becoming one with it and the Axis-Lock, but my knife-novice feeling about locks is that the frame-lock is probably the simplest, most reliable lock. Three of my five folders are frame-locks. That was not by design, but I'm finding I like them best, so far, I think.
Don't have any liner-lock knives yet.
Don't have any liner-lock knives yet.