How To Bad Problems While Anodizing Titanium

[bflying]

Thank you! These are good ideas.
I just now cleaned the titanium extremely well, so it definitively had nothing left from the sand paper and tried anodizing: Nothing was different. I also did the same with a part that never was sanded: Every thing was the same.
So, abrasives are not the problem.

Can we see pics of the new work? Also, how are you setting your machine? It's been a while since using mine. But if I recall, I'd start with both primary dials off. Fine tune dials probably in the middle so you can tweak either up or down if desired. First set amps, maybe start about 1/4 turn. Then set the voltage to desired landing spot. This should set the machine to run in Constant Voltage mode (as opposed to Constant Current).

I usually use this chart to estimate voltage for target color.

 

[bflying]

The first thing that stands out to me is that stainless bowl.I read that nothing
should come in contact with the electrolyte but titanium.
So a plastic or glass bowl with big piece (lot of surface area) of Ti for the cathode and
Ti wire to dangle your anode (piece to be colored) might solve the problem.

He is using the steel bowl as the cathode. Very similar to my setup. Can work pretty well. I think the only thing better would be a large titanium plate, but not needed for a basic hobby setup.

There is a guy over on the Drop forum that created a tank with a solid Titanium plate. Bent into a hex shape, placed into a glass enclosure, with a heavy perforated pipe for separation. He has been doing some very interesting work. And continuously experimenting with application/texture/finishes, etc.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

bflying Drop forum?

 

[ice-pic]

That plate set up looks good but 2mm thick sheet would work just as well.

 

[bflying]

bflying Drop forum?

Drop/Massdrop discussion board. The Massdrop/Ferrum Forge Falcon/Crux knives kicked off a bunch of home anodizing. Check out this thread. There's a bunch of ano experimentation in there.

https://drop.com/talk/9808/diy-titanium-anodizing

 

[bflying]

That plate set up looks good but 2mm thick sheet would work just as well.

Yeah, he said it was a nightmare to cut and bend. But for most of us, a $5 steel bowl works just fine too.

 

[razorburn]

Started anodizing last night in an old mini ice cream bucket, using a scrap piece of stainless steel for the cathode, with a baking soda solution.I was not able to get some colors and some colors took more voltage to produce.The best results were the different blues.

I don't have any TSP laying around the house but that's on my list of hardware store items.

 

[Florian.]

Can we see pics of the new work? Also, how are you setting your machine? It's been a while since using mine. But if I recall, I'd start with both primary dials off. Fine tune dials probably in the middle so you can tweak either up or down if desired. First set amps, maybe start about 1/4 turn. Then set the voltage to desired landing spot. This should set the machine to run in Constant Voltage mode (as opposed to Constant Current).

I usually use this chart to estimate voltage for target color.

For now, I don`t have interesting new pics.
This is exactly how I set the machine. I also run it on C.V..

 

[Florian.]

Started anodizing last night in an old mini ice cream bucket, using a scrap piece of stainless steel for the cathode, with a baking soda solution.I was not able to get some colors and some colors took more voltage to produce.The best results were the different blues.

I don't have any TSP laying around the house but that's on my list of hardware store items.

The bright blue looks very good. Is this the low voltage blue? I am interested how the high voltage colors (if this is not) will work out.

 

[Florian.]

My current situation:

I bought a second power supply to test out, if my power supply is the problem. It is the same power supply that you see in the photos from the Drop Forum (120V, 1A). Today I started testing and I did not see a difference. So the power supply should not be the problem.
I also bought natron for further testing. I will keep you updated.

 

[Florian.]

My current situation:

I bought a second power supply to test out, if my power supply is the problem. It is the same power supply that you see in the photos from the Drop Forum (120V, 1A). Today I started testing and I did not see a difference. So the power supply should not be the problem.
I also bought natron for further testing. I will keep you updated.

Edit: Fail. It should not be two times.

 

[bflying]

My current situation:

I bought a second power supply to test out, if my power supply is the problem. It is the same power supply that you see in the photos from the Drop Forum (120V, 1A). Today I started testing and I did not see a difference. So the power supply should not be the problem.
I also bought natron for further testing. I will keep you updated.

Edit: Fail. It should not be two times.

If you are getting the same results with a different machine, then I'm thinking there is something wrong with the core basics that is being overlooked. So let's step back even further.

Are you hanging the part on a titanium wire? Keeping both wire leads (positive and negative clips) from touching the liquid directly? Is your TSP the basic stuff with no other additives? Maybe try my suggestion earlier, and dump the TSP for the time, and use laundry detergent (liquid, or borax, or both), with some baking soda.
Is your water pure, new, distilled? No possibility of an older bottle refilled from the tap. Or possibly just "filtered" water, not actually distilled. Not trying to sound condescending. Just really interested in this mystery. I'm sure you'll get it figured out. And I'd also like to know what to avoid so I don't totally destroy some expensive knife in the future.

 

[ice-pic]

I am including a link to mr titaniums web page.
This is where I went to learn the basics.
http://mrtitanium.com/anodizing.html
At the bottom of the page is;
Check out my Science of Anodizing page if you want to understand how the color works.
Good read not too long but a lot of information.

 

[razorburn]

My current situation:

I bought a second power supply to test out, if my power supply is the problem. It is the same power supply that you see in the photos from the Drop Forum (120V, 1A). Today I started testing and I did not see a difference. So the power supply should not be the problem.
I also bought natron for further testing. I will keep you updated.

Edit: Fail. It should not be two times.

Wouldn't it be better to get a multimeter to make sure the proper voltages and amps were being delivered.Instead of purchasing another machine.The one that I have has a fuse that can test up to 10 amps.

 

[Florian.]

Wouldn't it be better to get a multimeter to make sure the proper voltages and amps were being delivered.Instead of purchasing another machine.The one that I have has a fuse that can test up to 10 amps.

Then, when it would indicate the correct numbers, I would be still uncertain, if it is still broken and for example changing while anodizing.
But maybe you are right.

 

[Florian.]

Update:

-I was testing with a titanium cathode that was a few times as big as the anode: No difference.

-I was testing with natron in distilled water as the electrolyte:
With natron I did not experienced pitting in the same way as with TSP or last year (yes, I am already testing for a long time) with vinegar. If I do not go back to TSP, I will maybe not need to worry about this pitting again. Despite having sometimes problems with a different type of pitting/etching and very uneven colors, the colors in the higher voltages (~50V - 120V) are always dull.

-I also found a new and important mystery to solve:
I have a 1.5mm thick titanium (grade 5) wire. When I anodize it without changing its surface in any way, it works perfectly. It looks clean and has the brightest color imaginable. But, when I sand it with 150 grid sand paper and wash it perfectly, after anodizing it looks dull and it does not even reach the expected color. The untreated wire can be anodized perfectly in TSP, vinegar and natron. And by the way, the last time the surface of the wire was treated is a least 1.5 years ago in the factory. The surface is also sanded, similar to the finish that I put on it. I am so confused, because everyone says that you should remove the oxide layer before anodizing, but in this case the surface is at least 1.5 years old and can be anodized better than anything else!

Here is an example. On the left is the freshly sanded wire and on the right is the wire with the extremely old surface:

Sorry, that I annoy you with all these problems. I do not understand why I can not just anodize normally like everyone else.

 

[Florian.]

Here is an example. On the left is the freshly sanded wire and on the right is the wire with the extremely old surface:

Both are anodized at 80V.

 

[bflying]

The 150 grit sandpaper paper is pretty rough stuff. You are probably introducing all kinds of new and uneven surface areas. Try that one again, but take it out to maybe 300-600 grit. I'll bet you see different results. Surface finish variations will make major differences in an ano end result.

I'm thinking back to some zt's that I did a couple of years ago. There was milling and decorative relief cuts all over the slab, but then had flat sections in center. The inside areas I left as is, while the flats I sanded out to probably 1k. Then the whole side dipped at probably somewhere in the range of 10-14 volts (estimate, I'm going by broken memory). Everything but the flats came out to a really nice dark bronze. But the flat ended up a super bright gold. Almost like you'd see on bright brass door knob hardware. I've experienced many examples of finish variations at same color voltages. It has taught me to expect the unexpected. And to pay attention to the little details. Those little subtle variations will be the difference between "Wow!", and "Eh?" in the end product.

 

[Florian.]

The 150 grit sandpaper paper is pretty rough stuff. You are probably introducing all kinds of new and uneven surface areas. Try that one again, but take it out to maybe 300-600 grit. I'll bet you see different results. Surface finish variations will make major differences in an ano end result.

I'm thinking back to some zt's that I did a couple of years ago. There was milling and decorative relief cuts all over the slab, but then had flat sections in center. The inside areas I left as is, while the flats I sanded out to probably 1k. Then the whole side dipped at probably somewhere in the range of 10-14 volts (estimate, I'm going by broken memory). Everything but the flats came out to a really nice dark bronze. But the flat ended up a super bright gold. Almost like you'd see on bright brass door knob hardware. I've experienced many examples of finish variations at same color voltages. It has taught me to expect the unexpected. And to pay attention to the little details. Those little subtle variations will be the difference between "Wow!", and "Eh?" in the end product.

Good advise, but it did not make a difference. I reproduced the last experiment now with 320 and 60 grid sand paper. The colors on the 60, 150 and 320 grid finish look similar. I do not think that the surface roughness on the untreated wire makes the difference, because it is very similar to the 150 grid finish.
It is true, that the surface finish affects the color, but I think that within the common grids in knife making the colors do not change as much. It has a noticeable difference when you compare for example blasted, sanded and polished surfaces. This video shows it very well:

When I watch the next video, I allways have the feeling that I actually have to etch the parts. But at the same time I am confused why the Grimsmos claim that they do not etch before and still have good colors, and why my untreated wire can be anodized so well:

 

[Florian.]

These are anodized pieces of my untreated wire (titanium grade 5). They look perfect. But, when I treat them, they look bad.
(from left to right: 10V - 120V, 5V increments)