Before you sell another knife...Think about this!

B. Buxton.

I sat at a table with a maker at a show he had the same people you had.

< I can buy one at Wal-Mart.......

He smiled and said, Yes sir. Very politely, the man repeated his comment and my friend smiled even bigger and said. Yes sir!

These people don't wanna buy, they just wanna run you down. When you are polite to them, they can only say about you. His Knifes are too high. These are the same people that see the Mona Lisa as just a picture.

He can't say you are an unmitigated jerk,or other some such descriptive terms. when you get into an arguement with them. And that's what it would degenerate into If "I" was doing the talking. I have done that.

I learned a lesson that day, just trying to pass it on.

Philosophical point:

Argueing with a beligerant person is like talking to a pig. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
 
I am a new maker and I am finding out what knife making is all about
there is more into it than just grinding,that is not even half the battle.
I would not think of asking top dollar for my blades I do not have the skill as some of the makers on these borads,but with time I will
Mike,I am hearing what you are saying about some one asking why the price is some high on a custom knife,when they can get one from Walmart for a couple dollars.
They have no clue to what the art of knife making is all about.
:)
 
jimmy can sell his knives for any price he wants! i just did the three day craft show here in town and this is a very un knife knowagle crowd. there is another maker (i use this term loosly, i think there from a supply house) there with blocky handles of bright pakkawood. this gent made a few sales for me, once people saw his and then mine. one person said his prices are less that half of yours, but once i picked up one of yours, there is no comparason. always remenber that you are not after everyone. and the world is full of people that know the cost of everything, and the value of nothing! :D
 
I sure have enjoyed readin all these comments. Great thread! I'm also a fairly new maker having started a little over a year ago. I don't make knives for a living and don't have any desire to do so. My goal is to support my hobby and maybe make a little college money for the kids as I develop my skills. I'd also like to have a little somethin to do to supplement my retirement although it's a long ways off. I don't have the skills or name recogition that many accomplished makers have developed over the years and I try to price my knives accordingly. I know the best way to build a good reputation is to satisfy my customers and I can't generate customers if my prices are too high. At the same time, materials, tools and supplies aren't cheap and have to be recouped along with something for the time spent. My hat's off to all who do this for a living!
 
Just commenting about a little part of the thread..

Mr. Buxton:

I thought about the situation you talked about. Probably the people you dealt with were not in buying mood anyway and were just being annoying. But suppose someone as ignorant as them came, with good intentions, and asked the same?

What they asked was, obviously, what the knife can do for them. You say in your post that you tried to explain them the resources and skill it takes to make one. But that's not at all what they asked. If they're not collectors but users, they want to know if it is sharper, retains edge, cuts some material smoother, ...

This would be, AFAIK, the most common mistake in all selling business. I don't do that myself but I read a few books, and have verified some of their content by observing my own and some others' buying behavior.

(I know I'm assuming a lot based on your post. If I made wrong assumptions feel free to ignore)

- Gon
 
Now that I have calmed down a bit, isn't it good that most of us don't have expectations of becoming rich off this. We make knives because we love them, and because we can. If we can make a living from it in the process, so much the better.
I think it was Jim Sornberger, who said, when asked what he would do if he won the lottery, I think the answer was,"I'd make knives till I went broke":D .
 
There are a bunch of folks out there who just want a knife there are some who want a custom knife and there are enough that know the difference. The problem always seems to be where they are presented with the product.
I have a friend who owns a hunting and fishing camp in Alaska. I sent three knives up there two years ago along with business cards. The visitors bought all three, went home and the orders have been non-stop since. The knives were priced reasonably (for the Alaska out back)and if that trend continues I will will get my Frink Grinder pretty soon.
I guess the bottom line for me is, target your audience. If it is the hunter and fisherman you want, go where they are. If it is the K-Mart crowd u can market there. I am always pleasantly suprised when someone picks up a knife and says " I have never seen anything like this before". Usually referring to some file work, taper tang, bolsters, etc. I enjoy the knife shows, only to see the other makers and there wares. I have no interest in catering to the knife buyers there, usually because of the kinds of comments made here. I am looking for the regular guy or guyette who will appreciate the time, trouble and occassional stiches I won making my knives. Don't expect all of these folks will appreciate your time or the equipment in your shop. They are only looking at the end result and what it means to them. Terry
 
I've really enjoyed some of these posts. I do need to clear up a grey area though. I do not mean that new makers should not sell their knives when they are ready. I'm not sure anyone thinks they are really ready. They should not hold their knives up as the same quality or value as the really good customs. A custom knife maker is an artist, mechanic, metalsmith, woodworker etc,etc. The value is in the whole package. I used Robert as an example before so I'll use Dave now. I've watched his knives improve with each one. They are much better than mine and there isn't any reason why he shouldn't sell them. My point is that he should not try to compare them to...say...one of Bruce Bumps daggers or Bruce Evans Bowies....Not yet that is, he's coming fast.

I have seen this year at gun shows, some of the most godawful "Custom Knives" ever made. The maker made claims of everything short of splitting atoms. ( I hold the title for that fib) The fact is that they were just junk. He was the Jimmy at the last show and people were buying. Two tables down there was a Gentleman who made his living making knives. They weren't art knives but solid well made hunters. He wasn't selling any at all.
 
I didn't mean to become a focus of any kind in this thread when I stated some of my recent experiences at a local show. I am more then willing to sit down and talk knives with anyone,about, the making,equipment used and the tests that I perform on my knives. I have made comparisons to knives that I have made, to productions that I own. Matter of fact I have been told by my wife that I need to cut back on all this knife talk, because people that aren't into knives like me find me very boring after a very short while :yawn: .

Gon, I'll go into great detail with anyone about my techiques and how my knives perform if they appear to be interested and I also like to hear from others, but when someone speaks there peace and then walks off without a chance for me to respond, it does have a tendency to aggravate me. All in all most people that stop by your table are interested and wanting to learn, but there are a few others in every crowd. It does break up the day :) .

I got acquainted with a leathersmith at this show and we got to talking about these wal-mart type people, He told me that when someone comes up to him and mentions wal-mart and knives, he just points out that they have $300-$600 in a gun, another $100-$300 in a scope, $20,000+ in a truck, several $100's in clothes and boots, deer tags and other expenses but they want to carry and use a $10 knife from wal-mart to do the most important work. He said it does have a tendency to make them stop and listen.
I have another show in August, and if the need arises I will take his advice. :D

Bill
 
I am glad you guys hold my Knives in such a high standard as I still feel like I am a beginner at this craft and keep learning more all the time.The great thing about knife making to me is that you can always find something new to learn and make.I was just looking back at some old pictures of knives I was making years ago and asked myself why I quit making them.The answer was because of the un educated at the gun shows.
I used to get all the same comments about prices at the shows myself and would just explain that i had to make a living in America and not in China were the average waoe wouldn't buy a meal here.A friend of mine would use logic on his friends when they would fuss about the price of a $100.00 skinner,He would just ask them how much they would charge to do a job at home by the hour and most would reply with either $10.00 or $20.00 per hour and he would then ask them if they would like him to charge them there price or mine,then he would explain that I could have 10-40 hours into a knife and thus wasn't charging enough.When learning you can't figure by the hour as I used to take 4 hours to forge 2 skinner blades when I first started and now can do the same in 1/2 an hour to a hour.Plus after years of making these I have learned how to do everything without allot of mistakes or back tracking and thus save time this way,good equipment also helps in faster times and less fighting to get it right.But after they see what one of my knives will do in the field compared to there Wal-Mart knife there attitude will change...Let a guy down a deer in almost freezing weather with it pouring down rain and he has to staop and sharpen his knife (the cheap one) a couple of times just to gut it then he takes a couple of hours with freezing hands to skin it out and most of the time is spent sharpening,while watching his buddy gut then start skinning and have the same job done in 15 minutes and finish his deer for him and never staop to sharpen his knife and then when looking at his buddies knife cuts himself as he thinks the edge is dull when in fact it still shaves,Then they get the idea.
I had a guy start making knives in the same town as me and started selling his knives for Half what I was getting.I was told about him and said that since he was starting he was just trying to get them in peoples hands like i did.When I met him personaly I was doing a demo at a fair and had a potential customer talking to me,this guy steps up and starts trying to sell the guy on his knives as he could do things I wouldn't ( like fix a pocket knife,I had already told the man I didn't fix them but I had heard that the new guy in town did)But then we were talking me making him a knife anyway and that %%%^& walked up and walked the guy away in mid sentence,needless to say I was pissed.This guy had never met me and I had never seen his work,He almost completely took my local market for a year and a half,Now they are coming back to me and willing to pay my prices as they have found his knives infereior and don't hold up anybetter than Wal-Mart and he has raised his prices.Heck you guys now me I will help anybody out that wants to make knives.If that guy would have just came up to me after the guy walked away and interoduced himself I would have called the man back and told him that this guy would fix his knife for him and we might have gotten alog great,but he didn't and we don't...
I sat next to a guy at a local gun show once that does real ruff looking knives and prices them accordingly,he is happy with them and that is fine,But I would have people look at mine and say these are collecter pieces and then buy his,He sold $3000.00 woth that day and I sold $100.00..I heard a lady bragging how good his big knife was she bought for digging in her garden,Made me laugh inside and I was glad she wasn't doing that to mine.But I had to think and after a couple of shows like that I decided to give them real collectible customs.Needless to say I don't sell at gun shows anymore either.
Pricing is allot harder than you would think,I think my prices are fair,since I live in part of the country that the economy is low in I don't have to charge as much to make a living.But I here how I am way to low at times then other times that I am high.Since I count on sales to pay billsI have to sell knives so I have to take what the market gives me.Yes I need to definately raise some prices as I am not even getting what some of the new guys can on allot of my knives,But I don't feel I am worthy of the big name prices either..Heck I used to be able to make 2-3 knives a week and now am lucky if I get 1 made in 2-3 weeks,yes they cost more but they have to,I find that the more I expect from my quality the longer I spend on the little things I didn't even used to see let alone worry about,But the buying public doesn't see that sweat on a scratch that just won't leave or the blod from a slip and have to stop before the blodd ages a great finish.Or when a handle cracks on the final hit on a pin and you have to start over so the work is correct and not just put together.Yes I could go back to the old days but When I start on a knife I just can't.I have to fight with myself to stop when making a rustic looking knife as I know it should not be that ruff,even though that is the look of the knife.I fret the small things more now than anything.Forging and grinding a blade are the easiest part of making a knife to me know..The reat of the quality in making the knife is what the customer sees and thus takes more of the time now.
Guess what I am trying to say is that people don't look behind the scenes at what it takes to make that knife they see.We are the whole factory in one person and there is only so much time in a day,try explaining that to someone...You have to shamelessly promote tourself as no one else will until they get one of your knives and it does more than expected ( or they can hurt you if it is infereior)If you want to make a kit knife fine but tell people this and that the quality isn't what a good custom is.I have been forging blanks for people now for a couple of years so they can learn how to do the rest of the knife and this way they put a quality kit on the market instead of a nice looking inferior blade out there to make people think they got ripped,so they wont buy a custom again.
Guess I better quit ,thanks for letting me ramble on and vent a little..This is all just my 2 cents worth also..
Bruce
 
I think that quality is something the customer has to test the knife for. Either he is knowledgeable in the knife field, and then you don't need explaining, or he is ignorant, and explaining certain things isn't worth the time.
Moreover, there are industrial knives which have an edge that wil cut, and cut, and cut...
What makes the _real_difference between a custom knife and an industrial one are, IMHO, three things.

First, it's not one of a lot of knives all identical to one another. It's unique. Owning something nobody else owns is valuable in itself.

Second, it's made by a person who painstakingly followed every production detail, not by a machine set to make knives keeping into certain industrial tolerances. It's like an old Rolls Royce Silver Spirit, with its engine put together by an expert craftsman who signed it when complete compared to a modern Rolls with its industrially built BMW engine. If I ever have enough money to own a Rolls, guess which one I'm going to buy? :D

Third, and more important of all, is that you may have YOUR knife made exactly per your specs. This is actually what justifies any sum you'll spend for a knife.

I actually own three custom knives. I bought all three much like I buy industrial ones, though: because I really liked them.
But it's not the same thing as having a knife made exactly like you want it.
That's the real crucial point in custom knives, and what should be underlined.
So if somebody says "I can have the same knife at 1/10 the price at Wal Mart" an answer that pretty well sums everything up is: "Sure, but it will be one of many identical ones, produced to keep production costs at a minimum and to meet mass production standards rather than top quality and made upon a design thought to meet the wider possible tastes and needs. A custom is _your_ knife, built for _you_, and _you alone_ as perfectly as possible".
 
Education is important, 8 out of 5 people can't even do simple math! ;)

I tried my hand at knife making and know the hazards and some of the skills needed to make a useful knife, BUT didn't realize the work involved in forging a blade until a friend let me POUND a straight piece of metal into Blade shape, now that is WORK and I called my friend in Ohio, Rick Hinderer and told him he wasn't charging enough for his forged knives! I've since let the knife making go and stayed with the LeatherWorks focusing on folder sheaths and as mentioned in previous post, when you start getting a LOT of work it does turn into work and some of the love/passion of it can get you down, I went on a short respite from before Christmas and started back in on some orders that people have patiently been on hold with but am taking it a few at a time to keep the workload so it doesn't overwhelm and make the work suffer, never rush any thing you put your life into!

As to the charging aspect, time is money and you have to value that time, some will change their own car's oil to save a buck but when compared to the time spent it may not really be saving them much, as well as the disposal of the old oil now is being watched more closely...(not sure what brought that paragraph into the mix...;D)

I heard sort of a joke but had some truth in it;

A man asked the Dentist how much he charged to pull a tooth.
The Dentist replied "$30"
The man was taken back, "$30 for 3 minutes work!?!"
The Dentist replied "Well if you want....I can pull it real slow..."

Education is key, my thoughts would be, to be ready with a convincing comeback when approached by the Wal-Mart shoppers, maybe even do a little work before hand in the form of a flyer that you can hand out that will give them something to read later on and really think about what they are getting from buying something Custom Made verses Wal-Mart stock...nothing fancy, just even a type written page that lists the Pros and Cons and then just xerox off a batch and see how it goes.

Knife Designed for such and such a purpose...
Blade Steel
Blade Geometry
Heat treatment
Handle material
Handle ergonomics
Handle attachment methods

Things like that might help to educate, I wouldn't Hammer the Wal-Mart brands or even actually name them but keep it civil and let the facts speak for themselves.
G2
 
Reading the experience of Bruce Evans brought this memory back. About a year after we moved to this area, another maker moved here. I looked him up, and introduced myself. He started coming over, and pretty soon I am marking all his blades for him. He made interframe folders, and sold them for thousands of dollars, but he could only afford stencils, no etcher. Go figure. Next he is borrowing material, never seemed to pay it back. He asked me where to sell knives locally and in this state, I gave him a few phone numbers of stores that I sold mine in, and the same for a couple of purveyors in this state. Next thing I know, I get a call from a store owner, telling me this guy came to see him, and proceeded to tell him that I made agricultural implements, and there was no future in handling fixed blade knives(it's what I make). According to him, the future was interframe folders. I confronted thes dork about this, and he admitted it, thought it was funny, said he was only joking with all those people. I told him, the next time I see him on my property, it would go hard for him.
Pretty soon, the bottom falls out of the interframe market. Somewhat after that, on the radio, is announced the arrest of a long time trailhead burglar(breaks into parked cars at trailheads), turns out to be this bozo, and not the first arrest.
Well now he is in the state pen for several years, tossing salads every night(I hope).
Most knifemakers are great people, but not all:mad:
 
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