Best Rapiers

Joined
Feb 3, 2001
Messages
92
I was looking at some of the different rapiers availzble and was wandering which one would hold up best in duels on a regular basis. Not that I get in duels but I would like to have a sword that could do it. I was mainly looking at the ones by Del Tin, Darkwood Armoury, the ones at www.armour.com and the ones offeredby CAS Iberia. Whos the best out of all of these as far as performance goes. Whos the worst. I would like to know as much about these swords as possible. Thank you.
 
Hi Charles, welcome to the Sword Forum!

This subject has come up recently and there's a fairly fresh and comprehensive thread at the other end of this link...
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164087

Check it out and feel free to ask any questions it doesn't answer for you, hope you find what you're looking for, I'm a dedicated rapier duelist and pretty much live for the weekly duels so I'm always happy to see someone take a new interest in the sport!
:D
 
Thanks Ken, I knew I should have reaserched it before I posted. SO Del Tin and Darkwood Armoury are about equal. I like one of the Del Tin models a lot, if I pick a Del Tin it should hold up with blade on blade contact? As should a Darkwood Armoury rapier? Thanks again.
 
Our rapiers are used weekly, for much practice fighting and then three witnessed and scored duels. The Del Tins hold up EXTREMELY well.
 
Correct me if I am wrong here guys but aren't Darkwood's blades made by Del Tin? I think that they just do the hilts, pommels and other accoutrements.
 
Nope, you're not wrong.
Darkwood DOES use Del Tin blades. Did you read something I said that led you to think otherwise?
 
No Ken nothing you said but Charles said this:

SO Del Tin and Darkwood Armoury are about equal...

I'm thinking that if the blades are the same that they are not about equal but instead are equal.

No big thing I just wanted some clarification.
 
I have ordered a sword from theis company, his prices are extremely reasonable if you keep a leash on your desires, as in $1,630 for a gold and silver inlayed rapier*, but his waiting list is about ten months long, so patience is a requirement. But do take a look at some of his rapier work. http://templ.oceany.cz/eng_z_vrch-stred.htm As an obvious statement, I would not have ordered from him had I not heard good things about him over at SwordForum and at NetSword. Check out this thread. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=166915

*But, Lord, is it gorgeous! I'd say worth every penny, if you could afford it. Also look at his Germanic Spatha $3,120. Again it is frightfully expensive, but it is a pattern-welded blade, with one of the most elaborately gold and stone worked hilts that I have seen on a reproduction. It is a true work of art, IMNSHO.
 
Sorry about the confusion Triton. So the Del Tin blades are really good for blade on blade contact, all I need to do is deside what type of handle I like? Thanks for all the help.
 
Charles, I think that you pretty much have it in a nutshell.
 
Thanks Triton. And thanks to everyone else that helped me. I think I'm going to go with the Del Tin. I really like one of the modles they have.
 
Not to rain on your parade or anything but unless you know of a retailer that has the particular model you want in stock you should probably be prepared for almost a year of wait time. Of course you could always look at the rapiers here: www.armor.com. You see I am no help at all.:)
 
Sorry I'm so slow getting back into this, but if it's not too late, I'd like to cover hilt strength for just a moment.


Hilt strength is every bit as important as blade strength when it comes to choosing an actual "User" rapier.

For a sword intended to be displayed at the side of a gentleman at court, the fine and pretty work of an elegantly wrought hilt served his purposes well. It gave the impression of wealth and taste as did everything else he wore in the presense of his fellow nobles.

However, in combat, those fine and pretty hilts were soon bashed to pieces and it's owner left holding a wrecked sword no longer capable of combat!

As with the period duelist, I see this happen occasionally to modern Rapier duellists. I've seen all sorts of sword failures. Blades snapped in half while parrying a hard blow, improperly tempered blades being horribly bent in the heat of "battle" and I've seen hilts almost disintegrate under the pounding punishment of regular dueling, leaving the swordsman holding a mess of battered sword parts and an unsecure (UNSAFE) blade.

There are many weld points on a rapier hilt, and obviously the more intricate the hilt design, the more weld points there are. Each of these points is a possible weak point in the hilt and great care must be exercised when assembling and welding the hilt.


Darkwood makes a VERY strong, very tough hilt, giving great attention to all welds and using good quality steel for those parts but unless you pay the extra hundreds of dollars for the "museum quality finish" it's going to look a little rough. I think of the standard finish grades as "Munitions Grade" finish. Very strong, very durable, but not something you'd have seen in the hands of a Captain of Musketeers.
(Although a Private of Musketeers would have been very very happy to own one!)

Del Tin offers the more intricate and perhaps delicate hilt designs, and they are EXTREMELY well made. (Take nothing I say here as a derogatory statement about Del Tin) However they are not QUITE as robust as Darkwood hilts are. I've never seen a Del Tin hilt fail, but they do seem to suffer a bit more wear and tear than Darkwood hilts do.

I've seen a few Museum Replicas (MRL) hilts get torn apart. Particularly the MRL Pappenheimer rapier. The pierced plate of the MRL Pap is not overly sturdy and I have seen sword tips get into these piercings and rip them up pretty good.

Hanwei rapiers are on a slightly better level, however QC is "hit and miss" on the Hanweis it seems. My Hanwei Pap has a few dents and dings, but after God knows how many duels, there are no broken welds and the pierced plate remains intact. (If somewhat banged up.) However I have seen others with major structural components snapped, cracked, or bent out of shape by the trauma of constant battle.

Windlass Steelcrafts, (AKA Deepeeka) hilts seem to fare the worst of the lot, with quillon arms snapping off or being horribly bent out of shape from hard impacts, and worst of all, the chrome plating being quickly chipped off from blade contact, leaving the swordsman with a sword of OBVIOUSLY non-period construction. (If you are a Living Historian, this is an important factor.)

Charles,
Del Tin is an excellent choice for you. If you wish to get out and practice with a "straw man" or hang it on your wall, or even one day find a group and learn the "Arte of the Duel" you will be well equipped.

Enjoy!
 
Hmmm. Some good points there Ken. You do not happen to know anything about A&A's rapiers in this regard do you?
 
The A&A rapiers are beautiful to behold, but I've never handled or even seen one in person. Somehow I suspect that no one's ever going to offer to let me fight with their 600 dollar rapier! :D

On the A&A rapiers which have turk's heads, I notice that they are indeed REAL turk's heads and I have always considered this "minor detail" to be the hallmark of a highest quality sword. This theory may not be completely accurate, but so far in my experience it holds true.

In any event, considering the wear and tear that regular dueling places on any sword no matter how well made, I feel that these swords can't be considered "users" by any but the most affluent swordsmen.

If however anyone here CAN afford them and doesn't mind destroying a 600 dollar sword in the course of two or three years, by all means give one a try and let me know how they hold up!
:D
 
A&A is horribly overpriced, but their stuff is top notch quality. My only complaint is that I have seen them trying to sell some rapiers with warped blades from the heat treat. By warped I mean 20 degree bends, it was BAD.
 
While I agree that the DT blades (in Darkwood furniture or not) are great for pre-1600 styles, don't rule out blades like the new TCA Zamoranos. However, since my preference is for 17th-19th century rapier, I really prefer a good double-wide epee blade in either a Popinjay or Graves furniture. Since I've been fortunate enough to spend a lot of time backstage at the Higgins Armory, I can tell you that most reproduction rapiers are far heavier (often due to thicker blades for safety) and ill balanced. Also very few repro blades have both a lateral and distal taper and just about all have a uniform rigidity throughout the blade instead of having the first thrid with a lighter temper.

Chris


Christopher J Umbs
Martinez Academy of Arms, CdS
Instructor of Italian rapier
 
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