Black Jack's Blatant use of Randall Made Knives Designs?

[extrastout]

Did the copyrights for Randall made Knives designs run out. Does black Jack give credit to Randall for the designs like Dozier does...did they ask permission? How is it ok for them to do this and bank off of it. They are going after one Randall model after another, only difference is the hollow grind (same handle combinations, same model names, same blade shapes, same materials, same choil)...to a T. This seems to be their business model....steeling Randall designs?? I don't get it, seems kind of messed up. This confuses me because they are both American made....Hopefully not the new American way (as far as knife makers) Maybe i'm missing something?

 

[jbmonkey]

dont know. always wondered myself. in for the answers.

 

[bghorn]

In general, copyrights apply to literary works, musical works, dramatic works, pantomimes and choreographic works, pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works, motion pictures and other audiovisual works, sound recordings and architectural works.

Only in special circumstances, copyright law would apply to knives (unique artworks).
In most cases though, you can patent (some) design aspects of the knives (utility or design patent).

There was nothing on Randall knives that would make them utility patent eligible. That said, most of Randall models were granted design patents. Design patent last 14 years (15 since 2015).
Most of Randall's models were patented long ago ('50s, '60s, '70s) and said patents are expired.

 

[extrastout]

In general, copyrights apply to literary works, musical works, dramatic works, pantomimes and choreographic works, pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works, motion pictures and other audiovisual works, sound recordings and architectural works.

Only in special circumstances, copyright law would apply to knives (unique artworks).
In most cases though, you can patent (some) design aspects of the knives (utility or design patent).

There was nothing on Randall knives that would make them utility patent eligible. That said, most of Randall models were granted design patents. Design patent last 14 years (15 since 2015).
Most of Randall's models were patented long ago ('50s, '60s, '70s) and said patents are expired.

So black jack actually made a whole company wrapped around a legendary, fellow American companies hard work and design making....Yes, I get communists steeling designs for profit. I'm pretty sure theres copyrights on the Busse Talon hole, and the Spyderco Spydie hole. Either way, black jack couldn't even come up with an original way too name their different Randall stolen designs (model 1, model 2, model3....Really!). I honestly am hoping to find out there is some kind of agreement between these companies.....Fellow American companies

 

[riversidedep]

When Blackjack started in the 1980s, they had quite a few knives they made that were not Randall copies....Mamba, Halo, AWAC, to name a few......though they did offer the Classic, which is obviously a copy of the Randall model 1. I seem to recall they also offered a knife similar to the Randall model 5 also back then. Now they also offer Randall model 14 and 15 copies, and maybe others I'm unaware of.

 

[Sosa]

I don't think the BJ knives effected randals sales one tenth of a %. Now all those buck 110 copies is another matter.

 

[justjed]

It's a knife. There really is no specific definition for what a knife is, but it's a sharp thing with a handle used to cut stuff. Most generally it's an edged tool of some design, and one of man's oldest tools. Modern materials notwithstanding, efficient, effective combat knives today are no different in design elements than they were in Rome, circa 500AD. Or London, 1750AD. Can you show me a single feature on a Randall Model 1 that wasn't used by Scagel earlier in the 20th century? Bo Randall said more than once that his biggest influence was Scagel. With a couple of thousands years of production, and excepting better steel alloys and plastics, there really is nothing new in knife design, only stuff we rediscover occasionally. It's all been done before.

Don't take this personally, but I don't think Randall needs a champion for this cause, you're only 30 years late to the party. If there was anything to be done, I'm absolutely certain that it would have been done by now, and Blackjack would have been forced to make changes. And I don't think the Randall's were too worried that anyone would think a Blackjack 1-7 was a Randall. A Randall copy? Sure, no doubt. A Randall tribute? I think one could effectively make that argument.

An analogy to this very situation is the Colt's Model 1911/1911-A1. John Browning designed it, the Army bought it, made some changes, and Colt was the first contracted manufacturer. Fast forward 30 years, to WW TWICE. Colt could not keep up with demand. Remington Rand, Union Switch and Signal, and numerous others manufactured them under license and war-time necessity. Fast forward another 50 years. There are literally dozens of manufactures. Colt didn't OWN the Patents, only the contract to build it for the Army. Army had others build it too. Who do you sue?

 

[The Zieg]

I'm not sure all the above is true. Design patents are common and when they are the result of original (as opposed to traditional) design work, they will often be jealously guarded. Now why Randall did not have those patents or, if he did, did not seek enforcement of them is a mystery to me. But such patents are available and very often enforceable.

Zieg

 

[justjed]

OH, and while they most certainly are not Randall's, the Blackjack knives are actually pretty decent, made of quality materials, and priced pretty fairly for a production knife of this construction. You could do a LOT worse for a carry knife, I can assure you. Hell, buy a Blackjack to work with, and save the Randall for BBQs and football Sundays.

 

[Velitrius]

Like the Cold Steel "R1 Military Classic", these probably haven't affected sales of Randall Made Knives too badly.

Little Bro has the Cold Steel version... but only because he got one hell of a deal on it. He knows it ain't no Randall.

The Edge-U-Cated consumer isn't fooled. And that's the kinda folk who buy Gen-U-Wine RMK stuff.

 

[justjed]

I can't say that Randall Knives DIDN'T try to do something. Only that, obviously, there was nothing that could be done, or else it would have been done.

Do you have any idea how many knife makers and knife manufacturers make knives right now that are VERY similar to Randall Made Knives? More than one, or even thirteen, most likely. You likely won't find a legal loophole that Randall's lawyers didn't. Why are you worried about it? There are starving kids in Houston or Philedelphia that could actually USE help, if you just want to fight for the down-trodden.

 

[SpySmasher]

I'm pretty sure theres copyrights on the Busse Talon hole, and the Spyderco Spydie hole.

I don't think that's right. I believe that the Spydie Hole was once patented but that the patent has expired. It is however a trademark, which is why you see it on Spyderco knives in a non-functional use (such as on fixed blades). It has never been copyrighted.

Patents, trademarks and copyrights are all different things, with different functions and different periods.

 

[bghorn]

I'm not sure all the above is true. Design patents are common and when they are the result of original (as opposed to traditional) design work, they will often be jealously guarded. Now why Randall did not have those patents or, if he did, did not seek enforcement of them is a mystery to me. But such patents are available and very often enforceable.

Patents expire. For a good reason.

So black jack actually made a whole company wrapped around a legendary, fellow American companies hard work and design making....

So did Randall and most knife companies before Randall. They all made products that were invented by somebody else.

I'm pretty sure theres copyrights on the Busse Talon hole, and the Spyderco Spydie hole.

Nope, those are trademarks. A completely different beast of IP.

Either way, black jack couldn't even come up with an original way too name their different Randall stolen designs (model 1, model 2, model3....Really!). I honestly am hoping to find out there is some kind of agreement between these companies.....Fellow American companies

No need to have an agreement. If design patents are expired (which they are), it's perfectly legal. I'm not saying it is the right thing to do, but that's how it works.

 

[shunsui]

I don't have a problem with it. There's a lot of nice knives out there.

Can't buy them all though.

 

[SCWillson]

I'm not going to applaud the practice, but I can understand the motives of knife buyers buying obvious clones: it's as close as they'll ever get to owning the real thing. I remember admiring Randall and Dozier knives in gun magazines* when I was in high school, but couldn't possibly have afforded one. Had an inexpensive clone been available, I might have bought it.

I still like the looks of a Dozier, but once again, I'll never be able to afford one.

*Just to illustrate how much our society has changed, my high school library in Minnesota had subscriptions to Guns & Ammo, American Rifleman, and a couple other gun magazines. I doubt any high school in America still does.

 

[tltt]

Randall was asked about this years ago by Fighting Knives magazine, and other trade magazines. They weren't really happy about it, but took the position that folks that wanted a Randall would understand why the Randall costs more and would gravitate to it.

Randall's been copied since the 50's at least. Also they've always been pretty nice about custom copies / inspired bys , which is nice, considering that Randall himself was inspired by Scagel, and drew some design cues from him early on.

 

[madcap_magician]

Did the copyrights for Randall made Knives designs run out. Does black Jack give credit to Randall for the designs like Dozier does...did they ask permission? How is it ok for them to do this and bank off of it. They are going after one Randall model after another, only difference is the hollow grind (same handle combinations, same model names, same blade shapes, same materials, same choil)...to a T. This seems to be their business model....steeling Randall designs?? I don't get it, seems kind of messed up. This confuses me because they are both American made....Hopefully not the new American way (as far as knife makers) Maybe i'm missing something?

I really don't know about this. I just wrote up a defense of Blackjack where I talked about the lack of an issue with using patented designs when the patents expired and so on and so forth, when I realized that everything I was saying was also basically applicable to Ganzo as well, and I really detest Ganzo.

I don't own any Randalls or any Blackjacks, but the reason the Randalls are attractive to me is because of the design... but the Blackjacks are attractive to me because of the updated materials. Randall is apparently unwilling to change. They don't need to as long as they still have a years-long backlog of orders to fill. But I'd sure love someone to make something like a Randall 1-7 in Nitro-V with blackened titanium furniture and brown micarta block handles cut to resemble stacked leather.

No one is making anything like that, but you can get a Blackjack 1-7 in 3V, which to me is a step up from O-1 or 440C. If Randall made their design in 3V, I'd buy it from them, but since they won't, the only option is Blackjack.

Does that make sense, or am I just being a huge hypocrite? Basically Randall has no incentive to offer options that I'd like to see, since they already get all the orders they can fulfill. So I do think there's room for someone to make more options if Randall won't do it... but I'd be a lot more comfortable if Blackjack had Randall's blessing to do it. I understand why Randall wouldn't want to, but it doesn't look like it's hurting them any.

 

[Aldebaran]

I really don't know about this. I just wrote up a defense of Blackjack where I talked about the lack of an issue with using patented designs when the patents expired and so on and so forth, when I realized that everything I was saying was also basically applicable to Ganzo as well, and I really detest Ganzo.

Does that make sense, or am I just being a huge hypocrite?

IMHO, yes, it is hypocritical. Does that make you a bad person? No. It makes you human. Many people on this forum seem to be very biased against certain copiers and excuse or ignore those they prefer to like. There are also some people who claim to be against any copying at all, regardless of the level of copying. We all have our biases.

I am glad you see that Ganzo is doing nothing different. If one buys a Blackjack copy of a Randall but is justified because Randall doesn't offer the same materials or whatever, you can't bitch about Ganzo.

 

[The Mastiff]

I wasn't aware they had brought out 3V model 1-7. I'd prefer that to the one I bought in A2 around 5 or 6 years ago. The A2 is pretty good though and honestly I don't have any complaints. I always have really liked the look of the 1-7 knives

Aren't these knives made by Mike Stewart as in BRKT knives? Seems like he does knives for at least 2 other companies as well. I have a few I've picked up over the years in blade lengths from 8 inches down to under 3 inches and .250 inch to well under .100. The steels are A2, 3V, Cruwear, and 4V. Fit and finish on all is good. Due to all the choices it's easy to get carried away

Joe

 

[madcap_magician]

IMHO, yes, it is hypocritical. Does that make you a bad person? No. It makes you human. Many people on this forum seem to be very biased against certain copiers and excuse or ignore those they prefer to like. There are also some people who claim to be against any copying at all, regardless of the level of copying. We all have our biases.

I am glad you see that Ganzo is doing nothing different. If one buys a Blackjack copy of a Randall but is justified because Randall doesn't offer the same materials or whatever, you can't bitch about Ganzo.

Well, my hypocrisy is purely theoretical at this point. I can bitch about Ganzo still because I haven't bought from either company.

I wasn't aware they had brought out 3V model 1-7. I'd prefer that to the one I bought in A2 around 5 or 6 years ago. The A2 is pretty good though and honestly I don't have any complaints. I always have really liked the look of the 1-7 knives

Aren't these knives made by Mike Stewart as in BRKT knives? Seems like he does knives for at least 2 other companies as well. I have a few I've picked up over the years in blade lengths from 8 inches down to under 3 inches and .250 inch to well under .100. The steels are A2, 3V, Cruwear, and 4V. Fit and finish on all is good. Due to all the choices it's easy to get carried away

Joe

There is a 3V 1-7 that may have been a dealer exclusive for a non-forum dealer (I don't recall that it's labeled a dealer exclusive, but I think I've only seen them at one dealer), but a Google will find it easily.

BRKT does currently own and manufacture the Blackjack label.