When you think back on it, military issue swords, knives and bayonets didn't have black, blued, or parkerized blades much prior to WW II. I've been trying to think which knife started this trend. In fact, in those good-ol'days, chrome and nickle cutlery was popular with the military due to spit-and-polish, garrison and parade mentality. I'm wondering if the one that got it going wasn't the Fairbairn-Sykes? I'm not knowledgeable on bayontes, but I believe the original, long bayonet for the Garand was not darkened. I think the M3 trench knife always was parkerized. I believe this black blade fetish is a British and American thing, I don't think the Germans ever bothererd with it. (I do seem to remember that the American, Patton designed saber had a dark blade, and that was circa WW I.) Anyone have any thoughts or insights? Leigh
Blackened blades
- Thread starter wlf
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Leigh,
I have German Mauser bayonet, original, with darkened blade. Every other such bayonet I've seen over the years seems to have possessed same. However, I've also seen bright blades on swords, daggers, and other bayonets from the German WW1 and WW2 era.
I've not, to my recollection, seen US bayonets with darkened blades. My trench knife has polished blade.
Dunno more than that
I have German Mauser bayonet, original, with darkened blade. Every other such bayonet I've seen over the years seems to have possessed same. However, I've also seen bright blades on swords, daggers, and other bayonets from the German WW1 and WW2 era.
I've not, to my recollection, seen US bayonets with darkened blades. My trench knife has polished blade.
Dunno more than that
Sierra912,
I guess you are right. There have probably always been some darkened and some not but I just never noticed. Of course on some of the old ones the blades have naturally darkened due to age and rust, and some of the blades that were once darked have had the finish worn off. I used to have one of those knuckle knives you were talking about on another thread. It was WW I issue, and the blade was polished. I do know that the current fad of darkened "tactical" knives only started ten or fifteen years ago.
I guess you are right. There have probably always been some darkened and some not but I just never noticed. Of course on some of the old ones the blades have naturally darkened due to age and rust, and some of the blades that were once darked have had the finish worn off. I used to have one of those knuckle knives you were talking about on another thread. It was WW I issue, and the blade was polished. I do know that the current fad of darkened "tactical" knives only started ten or fifteen years ago.
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Sort of on sort of off topic. I personally have no dislike for black coated blades. Some despise them. Now, I don't want a gent's knife with matte black coating, but in lots of cases it is fine. It can't hurt in that it may make it harder for an attacker to see your blade. I have also noticed that black teflon blades seem to cut through some things better than their uncoated counterparts. It is true that the coating can and does wear, but thats not a big deal to me. My knives are users and scratches and chips in the coating give the knife character. If it gets bad enough I can always satinize it or get it recoated. It is far from a requirement to me that a knife be coated though. Basically, if a knife performs the job I want it to and fits me then it does not matter to much to me whether it is coated or not. If it is availible both ways I will make a choice as to which I prefer. If not, and I like it, I will get it the way it comes.
I've always liked the blackened blades too. Back when I was making knives I tried lots of different methods to do it. The easiest way to tone them down is to bead blast them, but I think something like gun blueing is the prettiest. Parkerizing gives them a macho, military look that I also like. I had a few of mine given a black, hard chrome finish but this was expensive. I think these new bake on finishes that you can do at home would be a good bet for a small production knife maker, but of course all those painted on finishes, even the good expensive ones scratch easily. Leigh
Interesting topic. I have a 1907 bayonet for a Lee Enfield Mk3. It was may have been issued in India as it has Indian characters on the ricasso. It's blade is blued. My F-S is an original 3rd pattern by J Nowil and Sons. Its a WW2 issue and has the original bluing. I wonder when making things dark became a tactical concern. As an interesting point, I have a Mark4 Webley revolver with gloss blue and a Mark6 with dull blue. Both were issued in WW1.
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Looking at the gun scene, blueing and colour hardening were used as a rust barrier. These finishes could have been used for armour even earlier. All carbon steels of old would readily become matt/tarnished over the length of a campaign. Fashion allowed for darkened swords of all kinds.
Night attacks from any time would see equipment and faces blackened. So there is nothing really new to it. However, todays weapon systems are so effective and have such a reach, men and equipment have to be spread about far and wide and camouflage is the main protection. Troops located can be targeted. The Australian Army are issued brown/green boots which forms part of a complete comouflage package.
I think lessons learnt from the Crimea and American Civil War were finaly put into operation in the Boer War. Camoflage was used by both sides extensively, the most obvious being the British issue of Khaki. The beginnings of modern manoeuver warfare tactics.
Black blades has a lot to do with stainless steels remaining bright, unlike carbon steels that take a dull/blackened patena from bluing or just regular use.
tac45, the Webley revolvers were made matt or blued depending where they were bought. It was normal for gentlemen to arm themselves with pocket revolvers for protection from the riff raff. You could walk into a top London gentlemans outfitter and buy yourself not only your travel luggage but also a revover to go with it. The Army & Navy Store had mail order catalogues, big fat ones, for those anywhere in the Empire to shop from home. Churchill had bought himself a very modern German Broom Handle Automatic Mauser pistol, which he put to good use against the "fuzzy wuzzies". Shop Webleys often have a more refined finish. But I'm now getting into the collectors field; interesting stuff though.
Night attacks from any time would see equipment and faces blackened. So there is nothing really new to it. However, todays weapon systems are so effective and have such a reach, men and equipment have to be spread about far and wide and camouflage is the main protection. Troops located can be targeted. The Australian Army are issued brown/green boots which forms part of a complete comouflage package.
I think lessons learnt from the Crimea and American Civil War were finaly put into operation in the Boer War. Camoflage was used by both sides extensively, the most obvious being the British issue of Khaki. The beginnings of modern manoeuver warfare tactics.
Black blades has a lot to do with stainless steels remaining bright, unlike carbon steels that take a dull/blackened patena from bluing or just regular use.
tac45, the Webley revolvers were made matt or blued depending where they were bought. It was normal for gentlemen to arm themselves with pocket revolvers for protection from the riff raff. You could walk into a top London gentlemans outfitter and buy yourself not only your travel luggage but also a revover to go with it. The Army & Navy Store had mail order catalogues, big fat ones, for those anywhere in the Empire to shop from home.
Churchill had bought himself a very modern German Broom Handle Automatic Mauser pistol, which he put to good use against the "fuzzy wuzzies". Shop Webleys often have a more refined finish. But I'm now getting into the collectors field; interesting stuff though.Greenjacket, the MK6 has broad arrows stamped. Obviously issue. The Mk4 does not. I have never been able to find out if the MK4 was available commercially. They all have 'wings' infront of the cylinder for holstering. Commercial models such as the MK3 do not. Any idea if it was commercially available? Sorry about jumping out of the topic guys but I thought I might ask.
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tac45, sorry but my reference material is in storage right now. There is a whole host of material on the Webleys, some were even made by BSA, plus several production runs in America/Canada plus else where. Its fascinating stuff. Finish often had more to do with which factory or which year; beginning or end of the war. Its getting beyond my scope. As a combat pistol went they were reliable, accurate and could be reloaded fast. Undergunned compared to more up to date loads, but they worked. Infact if you found a nice smooth triggered one then they can stand head to head with any of their contemporaries: Luger, Walther and Browning. They can clover group to 15m. Fast too.
Your bayonet could well have been produced in India ??? and the quality would be identical.
The F/S commando dagger is the first black knife used for propaganda: to give a morale boost to the home front and to have the Germans use more resourses to protect themselses from commando styled raids and the resistance. Cheap to produce and gives the right "heeby geebies" message.
Your bayonet could well have been produced in India ??? and the quality would be identical.
The F/S commando dagger is the first black knife used for propaganda: to give a morale boost to the home front and to have the Germans use more resourses to protect themselses from commando styled raids and the resistance. Cheap to produce and gives the right "heeby geebies" message.
not2sharp
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The blueing of metal was done as a protective finish. Not everything was blued, it was time consuming and cost money. The metal was simply allowed to rust then it was cleaned to remove the active rust, and it would be left to rust again, followed by another cleaning, and so on for 10 or more times. In the end the metal surface would be polished which would leave a durable brown/dark blue coloration.
The tactical consideration is largely modern bunk. Knifemakers simply needed a way to get away from putting more time consuming polished finishes on their bladeware, so they invented the dulled finish and sold it as "tactical". It is much easier to beadblast a piece of metal than to give it a mirror finish, and it even easier to coat it; where you do not even have to have a finished surface.
Knives are seldom used to fight during combat, and on those few occasions when they are used, it is not going to matter whether your knife has a reflective surface. BTW, the FS daggers issued to during the Second World War were produced with bright and darkened finish, and sometimes a combination (bright blade/darkened hilt, or some other mix).
n2s
The tactical consideration is largely modern bunk. Knifemakers simply needed a way to get away from putting more time consuming polished finishes on their bladeware, so they invented the dulled finish and sold it as "tactical". It is much easier to beadblast a piece of metal than to give it a mirror finish, and it even easier to coat it; where you do not even have to have a finished surface.
Knives are seldom used to fight during combat, and on those few occasions when they are used, it is not going to matter whether your knife has a reflective surface. BTW, the FS daggers issued to during the Second World War were produced with bright and darkened finish, and sometimes a combination (bright blade/darkened hilt, or some other mix).
n2s
N2S...I am glad to see someone else mention that knives are seldom used in combat. I'm knew to the forums but so many guys worry about the knife they may need in combat situations. Seems some folks have forgotten about rifles and pistols. Truth is I have been a street cop for twenty years and have never heard of any cop in this country ever having to resort to a knife of any kind. At my work we all carry a multi-tool and most of us a folder. Not that I am saying having a good knife as a back up is bad. I fully recommend it. Besides I like knives.