BOWIE Knife or not?

[Way-Barney]

I bet most frontier knives were made by such companies. Just makes sense. You already make butcher knives, not much to make a slight mod to it or rebrand it.

Or put it in a fancy Sheath!

 

[Arathol]

Interesting....the card says the knife was made by Wade & Butcher, of Sheffield, England.

So the often-made reference to a "butcher" knife could also be a reference to the company name partner, Butcher, not the profession of butchering. I.e., it could be any type and shape of knife made by that company.

No, a butcher knife was just that, a butcher knife, same as today.....

I bet most frontier knives were made by such companies. Just makes sense. You already make butcher knives, not much to make a slight mod to it or rebrand it.

Yes, knives were shipped from knife making companies by the gross to the American frontier. Russell for one sent some 5 thousand gross in the years preceding the Civil War.

 

[NapalmCheese]

Here is Jeremiah Johnson's knife. It had a 9.5 inch blade and was quite thick. Not to different from the design of the clifft knife. And no guard or evidence of one

I disagree that there's no evidence of a guard.

Here's a picture I took of the Jeremiah Johnson knife at the Cody museum a few years back. If you zoom in on the ricasso/handle area you'll see a step between the spine and the tang and a noticeable gap between the handle scales and that step. It looks like there was a thin guard in that area.

 

[Cobalt]

I disagree that there's no evidence of a guard.

Here's a picture I took of the Jeremiah Johnson knife at the Cody museum a few years back. If you zoom in on the ricasso/handle area you'll see a step between the spine and the tang and a noticeable gap between the handle scales and that step. It looks like there was a thin guard in that area.

I know and said as much in the post you quoted.

 

[NapalmCheese]

I know and said as much in the post you quoted.

I must be confused, I was pretty certain you said "And no guard or evidence of one" regarding that knife, meaning you believe that knife never had a guard?

Either way, I'll get around to making a copy someday.

 

[Cobalt]

I must be confused, I was pretty certain you said "And no guard or evidence of one" regarding that knife, meaning you believe that knife never had a guard?

Either way, I'll get around to making a copy someday.

There has been a few copies made. I remember seeing one

 

[not2sharp]

I disagree that there's no evidence of a guard.

Here's a picture I took of the Jeremiah Johnson knife at the Cody museum a few years back. If you zoom in on the ricasso/handle area you'll see a step between the spine and the tang and a noticeable gap between the handle scales and that step. It looks like there was a thin guard in that area.

I doubt that was a guard. When we usually see that on old knives, it is where a leather spacer was once installed to help seal the throat of the sheath to keep water out. Over time the leather usually dries and breaks away leaving a small gap.

n2s

 

[killgar]

For what it's worth, the "Jeremiah Johnson" knife (top picture), strongly resembles the bottom knife pictured (including the shape and material of the handle, and the six handle pins). The bottom knife is described as a 19th century (1800's) Wade & Butcher, Sheffield bowie. It sold for $3300 at auction. Very thick blade, with tapered tang. Blade must be around 3/8ths of an inch thick.

And I believe the real "Jeremiah Johnson" was actually named John Johnston/Johnson.

 

[Sidehill Gouger]

For what it's worth, the "Jeremiah Johnson" knife (top picture), strongly resembles the bottom knife pictured (including the shape and material of the handle, and the six handle pins). The bottom knife is described as a 19th century (1800's) Wade & Butcher, Sheffield bowie. It sold for $3300 at auction. Very thick blade, with tapered tang. Blade must be around 3/8ths of an inch thick.

And I believe the real "Jeremiah Johnson" was actually named John Johnston/Johnson.

Good post. Hollywood created the name Jeremiah for their movie character and now everyone thinks that was John Johnson's name. A few years ago Gun Digest did an article called something like "Liver Eating Johnson never Did!" It supposedly told in Johnson's own words why he was given that nickname.

 

[Cobalt]

For what it's worth, the "Jeremiah Johnson" knife (top picture), strongly resembles the bottom knife pictured (including the shape and material of the handle, and the six handle pins). The bottom knife is described as a 19th century (1800's) Wade & Butcher, Sheffield bowie. It sold for $3300 at auction. Very thick blade, with tapered tang. Blade must be around 3/8ths of an inch thick.

And I believe the real "Jeremiah Johnson" was actually named John Johnston/Johnson.

Yes, his real name was John Jeremiah Garrison Johsnton and he was of Scottish decent not Irish. But everyone called him Johnson, not Johnston. There are books that discuss the name change. Thanks for posting that second knife, what a beauty.

Good post. Hollywood created the name Jeremiah for their movie character and now everyone thinks that was John Johnson's name. A few years ago Gun Digest did an article called something like "Liver Eating Johnson never Did!" It supposedly told in Johnson's own words why he was given that nickname.

The above post did not agree with what you are claiming, which is that he did not exist. He did. and he was called Johnson, even though Johnston was his real name. The real history is well documented. Movies are never accurate anyway, but The movie basically played the first half of his life as a trapper. It did not deal with the later part of his life which was equally brutal. JOHN JEREMIAH GARRISON JOHNSTON/JOHNSON was his name. The claim that JEremiah Johnson was fictional is pure BS. That was in his name. Just to be clear this is your comment.

There never was a Jeremiah Johnson, that name is a Hollywood invention for a sorry excuse of a mountain man movie.

 

[Cobalt]

I must be confused, I was pretty certain you said "And no guard or evidence of one" regarding that knife, meaning you believe that knife never had a guard?

Either way, I'll get around to making a copy someday.

Sorry, I misunderstood your comment. You're closeup proves that there was indeed a guard on that knife originally.

 

[NapalmCheese]

For what it's worth, the "Jeremiah Johnson" knife (top picture), strongly resembles the bottom knife pictured (including the shape and material of the handle, and the six handle pins). The bottom knife is described as a 19th century (1800's) Wade & Butcher, Sheffield bowie. It sold for $3300 at auction. Very thick blade, with tapered tang. Blade must be around 3/8ths of an inch thick.

And I believe the real "Jeremiah Johnson" was actually named John Johnston/Johnson.

You can see in my picture of the Jeremiah Johnson knife that it has that same inscription on the blade for Wade and Butcher, Sheffield. So yeah, that's the knife. It's really neat to see what it looked like new.

 

[NapalmCheese]

I doubt that was a guard. When we usually see that on old knives, it is where a leather spacer was once installed to help seal the throat of the sheath to keep water out. Over time the leather usually dries and breaks away leaving a small gap.

n2s

Killgar seems to have found the knife as it would have appeared when new, including a rather thin oval guard.

 

[Cobalt]

Would love to have a copy of that knife, cheaper though

 

[eveled]

Great post K killgar thank you.

 

[Sidehill Gouger]

That handguard doesn't look easy to remove. I wonder if he did it intentionally?

 

[killgar]

That handguard doesn't look easy to remove. I wonder if he did it intentionally?

Depending on the tools available, it would actually be quite easy to remove.

When I posted the pics I thought to myself "if someone asked me to remove the guard using methods widely available in the 1800's, and without damaging the rest of the knife, how would I do it?"

Here's how- I would wrap the blade in a piece of leather and secure it in a vice. Then using a hacksaw I would cut down through one end of the guard towards the tang, stopping just short of the tang to avoid damaging it, leaving about 1/8th" of steel between the end of the cut and the tang.

Then I'd turn the knife over in the vice and make an identical cut down through the other end of the guard, leaving 1/8th" of metal.

Then I would remove the blade from the vice and secure one side of the guard in the vice. I would hold onto the handle of the knife with one hand, and with my other hand I would grab the other side of the guard with a pair of pliers and bend it forward and back until the guard broke off at the cuts. The whole thing would probably take me about ten minutes.

The only tools required would be a vice, a hacksaw, and a pair of pliers. Although Johnson would not likely have access to all of these tools out in the mountains, any blacksmith, or gunsmith, or similar trades person in a town might have such tools. Like in a town Johnson might visit to purchase supplies, or a knife.

And of course there is the option of removing the handle pins, sliding the guard off, and then re-pinning the handles on, but that's not how I would do it due to the difficulty of removing the pins using small town 1800's methods without damaging the handles.

 

[eveled]

The top or bottom of the guard probably got bent and straightened then snapped off. Then the rest would slide off.

 

[Mark MacIver]

Not a Bowie, but a cook's knife. Adams (under the George Butler tradename) still catalogues versions in that style -

.

They were popular for a time as a camp knife in South America (particularly in Uruguay, Brazil, and Argentina).

Reports from onlookers of the Sandbar duel stated that the knife looked "like a Butcher's knife". BRK's Edwin Forest Bowie is the closest remake of that knife (in build and dimensions).

 

[Triton]

Reports from onlookers of the Sandbar duel stated that the knife looked "like a Butcher's knife". BRK's Edwin Forest Bowie is the closest remake of that knife (in build and dimensions).

I think so as well, but we'll never know for sure I suspect.