Bushcraft vs. Survival.

[BlackPaladin]

stevetexas,
I agree.

All who are concerned,

Yes, we are all taught to hate, in specific and small ways, and we are
taught to hate in very broad and sweeping ways. We are taught to
hate ourselves, the civilization/culture, philosophy, religion, history,
ancestors. We are taught not to reproduce and not to defend ourselves.

We are taught that we should do nothing without a license or at least
official permission and then we should not even temporarily impact the
remotest wild place.

We are taught that we have no right to favor ourselves, our families,
our friends, our neighbors, our race, or our nation. But we are taught
that anyone foreign to us, has these rights.

This PC crap comes so constantly and from so many directions, that
some will penetrate even the old and experienced. Of course, kids
will absorb it; however you can fight it.

Plant some seeds of doubt, by showing a few contradictions or factual
errors. Then give the kid a challenge: find some mistakes for himself.
Also, show kids how an individuals are hammered down when they
bring forward an alternate views; they already know this, but need to
be reminded, because at this juncture, they will tend to go public.

*yawn*
Redirect.
Bushcraft vs. Survival - take 2?

 

[Liam Ryan]

How (why) did this thread turn so political?
It seems that it has happened before, judging from some peoples remarks,
just curious how debating the difference between 2 terms ended at this point.

 

[Shotgun]

Giving birth to a thread is like giving birth to kids. Sometimes they just go wrong.

Oh, and unless someone got the wrong idea, I'm all for hunting.

 

[mp510]

As I understand it survival is enduring for a few days until you get rescued while bushcraft is not enduring but having the skills to thrive or at the least live comfortably in the wild. My question is why is it that when you see people talking about a good survival knife they're usually talking about a large bowie/kukri style knife while bushcrafters usually talk about small and thinner blades like the mora or the like?

Is there a difference as far as skill level where a bushcrafter just doesn't need to chop or is it more of a cultural thing. "Bushcraft" from what I've read seems to be more a British concept where knives are evil weapons. I can just imagine what they'd think of a 10 inch long Busse or the like. . I'm more of a computer chair survivalist so I feel like I'm on the outside looking in and am trying to make sense of what I see on different sites and forums.

I'm a member of a British Bushcraft forum. Plenty of people their have very nice choppers- Beckers, Busse's, etc.....Many of them own very nice custom knives, and they are not the sheep we credit them with being.

It is true that they do like knives with thin blades as well- that's got a lot a lot to do with trying to have the right tool for the job on hand. Face it, a chopper is not necesarily the right tool for every task.

They are as disappointed with their laws as we are, and yes, many of them like guns as well.

Don't believe that Briton means sheep. It doesn't, just as San Francisco resident does not mean that an individual is a stoned out, pinko, homosexual peace/earth hippy. That description, like the British sheep description only fits a percentage of the population.

 

[Moodino]

Bushcraft is what we engaged in for Millions of years before simple stone and metal tools evolved into powertools . The latter is what we usually refre to 'clearcut logging' LOL!
Seriously, it's not about ONE tool, but a family of tools- and doesn't it depend on the charcter of the bush? and what about the bushless dessert, prarie or snow-covered treeless wilderness?
Bushcraft begins with survival and ends with a home... in the wilderness...preferably in a tree with a vine hanging down for transportation

 

[Moodino]

I'll chime in on this one.
In addition to enjoying memberships is several online communities AKA forums, I am also a longtime student of online communities- seriously, I even took a class in it from Jenny Preece 6 years ago. So here comes the answer.....And this goes for every of the 27 communites I've ever studied...
The conversation DIRECTION goes off-topic (Usually in an irelevant or POLITICAL direction) when one person veers ever so slightly off course and then ( because the threads are so linear ) in no time at all the whole path of the conversation has changed direction all together. I place partial blame on the design of the forum interface as well as it's funtionality. And yes, my inserted reply doesn't belong here either
If the interface were properly designed ( yes we ARE talking with V-Bulletin designers) , then a mechanism would alert the community that the conversation is going off topic. This requires some AI to be programmed in- so we're far off from that just yet.
Personally,
I developed a short list of habits to keep myself on-topic, my favorite is to write down on a sticky note, the key thrust of the initial post ( no! not the title) . This STAYS on the bezel of my screen until I've memorized the thrust of each thread that I frequent.
I hope that helps. Other than this, Politics and Faith/ Religion are the two predominant distractors.

How (why) did this thread turn so political?
It seems that it has happened before, judging from some peoples remarks,
just curious how debating the difference between 2 terms ended at this point.

 

[MVF]

I don't recall who said it, but they made the start of a very good point. The only way many of us would ever see a classic "survival" situation is if our plane went down (unfortunately these days that would guarantee that we would have neither a large nor a small knife on us : ( ). The only other way we would be in the wilderness is if we went there on purpose, in which case, if you're here reading this it may be presumed you will be whatever your idea of prepared is.

I think the most likely "survival" situation for most of us is a breakdown of society/natural disaster scenario (think New Orleans)- in other words, urban/suburban survival. I would love to see more discussion along those lines. After all, no matter how good a hunter, bush crafter, survivalist or whatever you are, when any significant portion of the population heads for the hills, there will not be game (or probably clean water) for long.

What do you think?

 

[pit man]

Blimey, youve got THAT right. You wanna lug as little as possible up that B*****d.
Fancy you knowing Kinder Scout, when youre ALL the way over on Vancouver Island!
I LOVE the Peak District, but, like many moors & mountains the weather conditions up there can change SO quickly!

Iv'e only been out here for a year,before that I was yomping around the Peak every other weekend.....miss the pubs !!!!

To contribute to the thread survival is an unplanned situation you find yourself thrown into,bushcraft is a way of life.In one you hope to survive and in the other you hope to thrive !!!:thumbup:

 

[braddy]

"If the interface were properly designed ( yes we ARE talking with V-Bulletin designers) , then a mechanism would alert the community that the conversation is going off topic. This requires some AI to be programmed in- so we're far off from that just yet.
Personally,
I developed a short list of habits to keep myself on-topic, my favorite is to write down on a sticky note, the key thrust of the initial post ( no! not the title) . This STAYS on the bezel of my screen until I've memorized the thrust of each thread that I frequent."








Interesting stuff, you should start a thread in the community center on the subject.
It might help us to improve.

 

[DaleW]

To me, bushcraft is advanced camping. It's the sort of thing we used to do in Boy Scouts. Those are great skills for survival as you learn to improvise. I practice "leave no trace" when I'm in old growth and parks, so I need to be self-dependent using the gear I haul. Bushcaft the way I learned it is a little hard on estabilshed trails and campsites. If I'm in a survival situation, move over Mother Nature-- I'm gettin' busy!

Survival, IMHO, is knowing how to stay alive after accident, injury, natural disaster, losing your gear, or getting lost. My home and work survival plans center more on earthquakes than anything else. That covers most of the other scenarios short of asteroids and nuclear war. My hiking survival plans center on accident/injury, losing my gear or getting lost.

The ultimate to me would be able to survive to walk out or be rescued using what is in my pockets. Bushcraft would be REALLY handy if I found myself stranded with just knife, compass, fire starter, LED microlight and a whistle-- items I always carry in a pocket if I'm hiking. Knowing how to build a fire, make a shelter, and what beasties and plants can be found and eaten would be the tools I would need to survive-- that is to KEEP LIVING

Making spoons and buttons is just a good way to learn how to make simple objects from wood. Some folk have never made something from scratch with their hands-- it's a great confidence builder. Start with a button and work your way up to a log cabin or a sailboat. Build a kayak from driftwood and blue tarps and get home. Don't discount the hobby factor in bushcraft-- not a thing wrong with that.

 

[Doppler Bob]

I doubt many English people would consider paying $400 dollars for a sharp piece of metal (busse) with a handle attached.
They are more likely to buy a quality $10.00 Machete and spend the balance on some good clothing or boots.
If and when you hear stories about how someone got lost and the quality of their "blade" saved them then I guess the Brits will wake up :yawn:
Their elite soldiers (SAS and Paras/RM Commandos) do extensive live of the land exercises in the Desert and Arctic and Jungle etc, never heard a mention of Busse's or SOG etc.
Anyway be good.

I edc Case, GEC etc so my dailies are small. If I intended to be in the woods, I’d carry that machete from army surplus and buy all weather gear to keep dry. In my mind more useful than any of those expensive suggestions for heavy cutting like to clear a camp site, unlikely to break and easy to sharpen. Along with a Case stockman or a flipper like Civivi, I think I’d be fine for around $80.

 

[barleywino]

I edc Case, GEC etc so my dailies are small. If I intended to be in the woods, I’d carry that machete from army surplus and buy all weather gear to keep dry. In my mind more useful than any of those expensive suggestions for heavy cutting like to clear a camp site, unlikely to break and easy to sharpen. Along with a Case stockman or a flipper like Civivi, I think I’d be fine for around $80.

I find a small saw like the Silky Gomtaro dual-teeth model to be more useful than a machete or other chopper (ymmv)

 

[scdub]

My question is why is it that when you see people talking about a good survival knife they're usually talking about a large bowie/kukri style knife while bushcrafters usually talk about small and thinner blades like the mora or the like?

Just my take, but I think of bushcraft as an extension of survival.

For me, survival skills are more important and more likely to be needed within my lifetime.

However, I also like to practice some “bushcraft” skills (usually creating small scale items in part by carving) because they increase my comfort level in the wild and theoretically in a longer-term survival situation as well.

If you think about the show “Alone”, I’d say that most folks are primarily using survival skills at the outset, then as they learn to survive in their environment, many turn towards more “bushcrafty” activities to keep themselves occupied (an important consideration) and make themselves more comfortable.

I tend to have both “survival” and “bushcraft” knives when I’m outdoors for two reasons: 1) I might find myself in a survival situation where one or the other (or often both in combination) will be most effective/efficient, and 2) it gives me a chance to practice with different types of knives. (Ok 3 reasons - also fun).

…allso I think some “pure bushcraft” people don’t like the idea of “survival” or survival knives because they don’t want to acknowledge that there are scary things in the woods that can kill you, and that maybe carrying a knife that could serve well as a weapon is a good idea - especially if you aren’t carrying a firearm…

 

[scdub]

I think the most likely "survival" situation for most of us is a breakdown of society/natural disaster scenario (think New Orleans)- in other words, urban/suburban survival. I would love to see more discussion along those lines. After all, no matter how good a hunter, bush crafter, survivalist or whatever you are, when any significant portion of the population heads for the hills, there will not be game (or probably clean water) for long.

I find/rescue lost hikers regularly/professionally. These people (mostly) survive, but rarely are they surviving well. Rarely do they have maps, let alone actual survival gear.

When I’m hiking/backpacking, I’m often out of cell service (and I’m still walking on the wild side as I haven’t bought a satellite tracker yet), so I’m on my own for awhile if I get lost or break an ankle. If that ever happens, I don’t plan to be scared and shivering like many of my “customers” when I’m rescued. Therefore I definitely suggest learning/teaching survival skills to anyone that wants to experience the outdoors in any degree of solitude (which I also definitely suggest).

As for societal breakdown, I tend to agree that it’ll come down to other skills/issues before traditional survival/bushcraft. For instance - A) keeping your eyes open and leaving before it gets bad, B) having resources - physical resources like food, water, and ammo. and more importantly, competent FRIENDS that you can team up with.

 

[B_Cridhe]

This thread is ancient, but it seems most of the people whop started it are gone, so....might as well necromance it.

First, let me define terms as I use them.
Survival:
First requirement is your life must be in danger, otherwise it's likely some form of camping.
Second requirement is that it is of limited duration by design, otherwise it's sustained existence (or you died).

Camping: Using equipment to spend leisure time outdoors.

Bushcraft: Is what it says on the tin. Crafting things in the bush (though I prefer the term Woodscraft). Much of what is camping is commonly confused for bushcrafting. Example: Some use the term bushcraft for setting up a tarp, and making food with their alcohol stove, or fire started with modern equipment, then spending the night in some sort of sleep equipment pre- made. This is camping.
Building some sort of shelter from what is in the wild, sleeping in it, making primitive fire, making utensils/furniture, etc are all bushcrafting. Typically people who sell themselves on bushcrafting do both bushcrafting and camping at the same time (ever notice the book from the experts of old are always called some variation of "Bushcraft and Camping" or "Woodfraft and Camping"? There's a reason for that.

That being said, I think the deal with "survivalists" liking big knives and "bushcrafters" having a bit of disdain for them comes down to the fact that they are different things, and "purists", typically of the bushcrafter side, try to avoid thinking of the other side, especially at the time of the beginning of this thread. At that time, the bushcrafter community was very much enamoured with the "bushhippie" vibe, and had an emotional reaction to the idea that it may be "you vs nature". Wheras the survivalist was coming at it very much from that direction, because if it is a survival situation, it IS you vs whatever the threat is -- for wilderness survival that threat is nature.

As for the size of the knife, the bushcrafter, in the quest to craft the bush tends to like using specialized equipment, and will often carry multiple pieces of equipment to effect that. Possibly carrying an axe or machete, various curved knives, even small chisels and saws to specific tasks typically doesn't like the "one tool to rule them all" approach of the survivalist.

On the survivalist's end they are looking at their survival kit as something that has to be small and portable to have in proximity the majority of the time so that they will actually have it if a situation occurs. This necessitates multifunctionality of tools. Hence the trope of the big survival knife. It's meant to be the main, if not only, cutting tool. While it can't work as well as a specialized tool, it can do the job of a smaller knife, and the job of a machete or axe, just not as well, but takes up less room than carrying a half dozen specialized tools.

The final point of contention between the two is the bushcrafter tends to not like to acknowledge that the thing you may have to survive is another human, whereas the survivalist usually puts that high on the list.

 

[C_Claycomb]

a few years after this thread went dormant the Woodsmoke Bushcraft Symposium was restarted. In attendance were many of the people who have since been described as “Titans of Bushcraft”. There was much discussion about how “Bushcraft” is defined and its relationship with survival, modern expeditions, classic camping and historical re-enactmen, and primitive skills. The following Venn diagram and explanation was the result and is the best explanation of how these subjects fit together that I have seen.

 

[Backyard]

it's really quiet simple. bushcraft is for going into the woods and survival is getting out. equipment is irrelevant. equipment is just what someone needs to accomplish what they are attempting to do. some can survive with nothing while others will die even with a vehicle full of camping supplies. it's all based on training, skill, ingenuity and will to survive

different environments will also require different equipment too. you probably won't need an axe in the desert or maybe even the jungle. a small knife may be more then sufficient. whereas in the northwest forest an axe will help greatly in the bushcraft but may be overkill for survival. it may even hinder being able to get out by weighing you down

as already mentioned, there is a great overlap between the too.

 

[DaveHb]

Both are psychologically created phrases to create cliques, and to create a demand for products. “Survival” phraseology simply perpetuates the cultural ideology that nature is something to be fought and conquered instead of something which can be lived in harmony with.
Survival denotes out living, or beyond something.
I digress.
Living in nature, Woodcrafting if one chooses to call it that, I can say one doesn’t need so much gear as one thinks.
A good knife is awesome to have, hatchet is okay, but if someone is really surviving a little folding wood saw is better than a hatchet, or large knife as it’s much quieter and less apt to cause a bad cut if one makes a mistake.
Our ancestors lived for centuries without those things.
Having spent much time outdoors with only a tarp, folding knife, and folding wood saw in sub-freezing and down to sub-zero temps you don’t want to expend that much energy to build a “survival” shelter.
If actually surviving etc one only need A couple fleece blankets, sleeping bag, tarp, pack of tea light candles light weight knife, wood saw, way to start a fire; if someone doesn’t know how to make a bow, or hand drill to start a fire; and and a couple 50 gallon contractor trash bags would be my go to for a kit.
Smaller is better for a survival shelter. Body length, sitting height. Conserve energy. Don’t need huge knives. Rocks heated in fire can warm it.

Most YouTuber’s haven’t actually lived it for months.
Fleece blanket will wick water away from the body dry very quickly and keep one warm even if outer layer is wet.
If it’s too wet to build a fire, Although one need be careful, tealight candle can be lit sitting Indian style placed between the feet and fleece blankets and tarp wrapped around you, position of legs will keep blanket away from flame and It will keep a person comfortable.

Bushcrafting/woodcrafting is living in nature.
Modern tools are awesome, but not necessary.
This little blade here could provide if need be.
Quillions and a few other things on a knife would make this more tedious and strenuous.
How many have really tested knives recommended? Process a hide with a knife then tell me if you still want to hold that knife after couple hours of non-stop use required to do so.

https://imgur.com/a/CjM9jyi

 

[rhino]

I can define bushcraft with one sentence. Bushcraft is going outside and purposely making every task and activity more difficult, labor intensive, and time-consuming than it needs to be.

 

[Danke42]

I can define bushcraft with one sentence: going outside and purposely making every task and activity more difficult, labor intensive, and time-consuming than it needs to be.

Yeah maybe but what else are we going to do with all these knives; sit in bed and admire them?