CA "Dirk or Dagger" Knowledge Base

One of the key events leading up to the founding of AKTI was the passage in California of an alarmingly broad definition if "dirk or dagger," where the bill was already law before anybody who was anybody in the knife trade knew anything about it.

I have done a bunch of "gnome work," with the help of The Wife's legal research web site access, and collected all or nearly all California appellate cases over the last few decades on what constitutes a "concealed dirk or dagger."

The result is my new page, Is this a dagger which I see before me? , which has links to all the cases on my site, plus some comments and rants of mine at no extra charge.

Comments and suggestions are welcome. I could easily have missed something.

Anybody in California who is charged with concealed carry if a dirk or dagger should pay special attention to People v. Oskins where the court decided that the Legislature had defined the tirm, "dirk or dagger" so broadly that now, for the first time, intent to use the object as a weapon had become an element of the crime, with the government having the burden of proof.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001


[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 26 November 1999).]
 

Jim March

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Oct 7, 1998
Messages
3,018
AWESOME SITE!!!

One HELL of a good job, James!

Two quick points: I can get you details on People vs. Terrence Terry where a jury found that open-carry-on-ankle was still cool under the most current set of post-1/1/98 laws.

Also, you might want to note that People vs. Barrios is particularly interesting for people fond of the Myerchin A500 and other "true fixed sheepsfoot" blades that lack stabbing tip properties. I was guessing that such could slip below the "stabbing implement" radar and this case seems to strongly support that. If you pack something like this concealed, specify that it's use is for "cutting seatbelts or clothing post-crash", something a sheepsfoot is particularly good at. You might even include a link to Myerchin (http://www.myerchin.com) so that people can see what we mean by "true sheepsfoot".

The other main point is, you don't have a link to the "infamous Spyderco Mariner case" that directly led to a lot of the reforms. It would be a valuable addition.

Last thing: is there any case law related to prosecution under LOCAL ordinances? In my case a local ordinance infraction was immediately dropped the moment I prodded them on the stupidity of it...as an infraction, it was "very low priority" for the DA even though I was technically in violation.

Jim
 
The successful appeal in the Spyderco Mariner case was not a published opinion, but simply a reversal at the Superior Court level. In any case, the subsequent amendment to the statute covers folders in general. The blunt point of the Mariner was not an issue.

I'll get that Myerchin sheepsfoot fixed blade added to my web page and posted in a shameless commercial plug at some point.

And the particulars of the Terry case would be an interesting addition to my "knowledge base."

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
The Myerchin is just an example, although it's a good one. Mad Dog used to make something called a "street razor", basically a double-ended sheepsfoot with one continuous edge between the tips and a handle sticking upwards out of the middle at an off-angle. The idea was to replicate the functionality of a folding straightrazor but with added "oomph" and legal concealability through this same concept of "not a stabber".

I'll see if I can get an exact citation on the Terry case, it'd be a valuable addition.

Jim
 
The Terry case had educational value on how the system works, but it is not a precedent that an attorney could cite as authority for his or her position, like the published appellate decisions in the collection. It would be useful as an illustration of continuing confusion, if anybody wants to take the issue back to the Legislature.

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Any partiular insight on knives on University property?

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-Humpty

"Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall. Humpty dumpty had a great fall.
Maybe Humpty should of had a knife."

 
In California, Penal Code 626.10 applies, with SEPERATE rules for K-12 (subsection "A") and Universities (subsection "B"). The difference between "A" and "B" is so subtle you might miss it: in "B" you can pack any length FOLDER you want, including concealed in the folded position. While it's not explicit, you can bet that Penal Codes 653k and 12020 still apply!

I'll quote the actual code below. Following 626.10 I'll quote 626 where it defines exactly what constitutes the various types of schools. This should be all you need.

Upshot: I carry Sifu#1 (5.5" blade folder) on University grounds with no qualms.

-----------------------

626.10. (a) Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as
defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of
Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the
federal government who is carrying out official duties while in this
state, a person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests
or preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in
assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this
state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his
or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick,
knife having a blade longer than 21/2 inches, folding knife with a
blade that locks into place, a razor with an unguarded blade, a
taser, or a stun gun, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 244.5,
any instrument that expels a metallic projectile such as a BB or a
pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring
action, or any spot marker gun, upon the grounds of, or within, any
public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any
of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, is guilty of a public offense,
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year,
or by imprisonment in the state prison.
(b) Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined
in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a
full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal
government who is carrying out official duties while in this state, a
person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests or
preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in
assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this
state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his
or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick, or
knife having a fixed blade longer than 21/2 inches upon the grounds
of, or within, any private university, the University of California,
the California State University, or the California Community Colleges
is guilty of a public offense, punishable by imprisonment in a
county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state
prison.
(c) Subdivisions (a) and (b) do not apply to any person who brings
or possesses a knife having a blade longer than 21/2 inches or a
razor with an unguarded blade upon the grounds of, or within, a
public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any
of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, or any private university, state
university, or community college at the direction of a faculty member
of the private university, state university, or community college,
or a certificated or classified employee of the school for use in a
private university, state university, community college, or
school-sponsored activity or class.
(d) Subdivisions (a) and (b) do not apply to any person who brings
or possesses an ice pick, a knife having a blade longer than 21/2
inches, or a razor with an unguarded blade upon the grounds of, or
within, a public or private school providing instruction in
kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, or any private
university, state university, or community college for a lawful
purpose within the scope of the person's employment.
(e) Subdivision (b) does not apply to any person who brings or
possesses an ice pick or a knife having a fixed blade longer than
21/2 inches upon the grounds of, or within, any private university,
state university, or community college for lawful use in or around a
residence or residential facility located upon those grounds or for
lawful use in food preparation or consumption.
(f) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any person who brings an
instrument that expels a metallic projectile such as a BB or a
pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring
action, or any spot marker gun upon the grounds of, or within, a
public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any
of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, if the person has the written
permission of the school principal or his or her designee.
(g) Any certificated or classified employee or school peace
officer of a public or private school providing instruction in
kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, may seize any of
the weapons described in subdivision (a), and any certificated or
classified employee or school peace officer of any private
university, state university, or community college may seize any of
the weapons described in subdivision (b), from the possession of any
person upon the grounds of, or within, the school if he or she knows,
or has reasonable cause to know, the person is prohibited from
bringing or possessing the weapon upon the grounds of, or within, the
school.
(h) As used in this section, "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or
other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready
use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or
death.

---------------------------------------------


626. (a) As used in this chapter, the following definitions apply:

(1) "University" means the University of California, and includes
any affiliated institution thereof and any campus or facility owned,
operated, or controlled by the Regents of the University of
California.
(2) "State university" means any California state university, and
includes any campus or facility owned, operated, or controlled by the
Trustees of the California State University.
(3) "Community college" means any public community college
established pursuant to the Education Code.
(4) "School" means any elementary school, junior high school,
four-year high school, senior high school, adult school or any branch
thereof, opportunity school, continuation high school, regional
occupational center, evening high school, or technical school or any
public right-of-way situated immediately adjacent to school property
or any other place if a teacher and one or more pupils are required
to be at that place in connection with assigned school activities.
(5) "Chief administrative officer" means either of the following:

(A) The president of the university or a state university, the
Chancellor of the California State University, or the officer
designated by the Regents of the University of California or
pursuant to authority granted by the Regents of the University of
California to administer and be the officer in charge of a campus or
other facility owned, operated, or controlled by the Regents of the
University of California, or the superintendent of a community
college district.
(B) For a school, the principal of the school, a person who
possesses a standard supervision credential or a standard
administrative credential and who is designated by the principal, or
a person who carries out the same functions as a person who possesses
a credential and who is designated by the principal.
(b) For the purpose of determining the penalty to be imposed
pursuant to this chapter, the court may consider a written report
from the Department of Justice containing information from its
records showing prior convictions; and that communication is prima
facie evidence of the convictions, if the defendant admits them,
regardless of whether or not the complaint commencing the proceedings
has alleged prior convictions.
(c) As used in this code, the following definitions apply:
(1) "Pupil currently attending school" means a pupil enrolled in a
public school who has been in attendance or has had an excused
absence, for purposes of attendance accounting, for a majority of the
days for which the pupil has been enrolled in that school during the
school year.
(2) "Safe school zone" means an area that encompasses any of the
following places during regular school hours or within 60 minutes
before or after the schoolday or 60 minutes before or after a
school-sponsored activity at the schoolsite:
(A) Within 100 feet of a bus stop, whether or not a public transit
bus stop, that has been publicly designated by the school district
as a schoolbus stop. This definition applies only if the school
district has chosen to mark the bus stop as a schoolbus stop.
(B) Within 1,000 feet of a school, as designated by the school
district.
 
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