California fixed blade question

L

Leo3an

Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
183
hello,

This is more of a curiosity question than a practical question about fixed knives in Los Angeles, California.

In Los Angeles county, concealed carry of a fixed knife is not legal. Open carry is legal. But it got me thinking... a bit silly. What actually constitutes as a fixed knife??

Would concealed carry of a fixed blade knife legal if the knife:
- is 1 inch blade length neck knife
- or 2 inch blade punch knife
- or it has no handle, like a razor blade
- or its a tiny nail filed to have an edge
- is carrying a broken piece of 1/2 inch metal considered fixed knife?

Im not talking about a practical law since no cop would actually arrest an old grandma carrying a knitting needle. Or me if I carried a tiny card shape multi-tool with an edge that doesnt fold. Im more curious about legality of what constitutes as a fixed knife in state + local law.

Thanks
 
The prohibition on concealed carry of a fixed blade is actually state law, not LA County. Long story short, it's illegal to conceal a "dirk" or "dagger" under Penal Code 21510. Those are defined under PC 16470:

As used in this part, “dirk” or “dagger” means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not prohibited by Section 21510, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.
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That is really all the guidance the law gives on what is and is not illegal to conceal. Because of this, most cops from CA I've talked to will have to make a judgement call on a given knife, taking it not just the knife itself, but the situation, your criminal background, and things you say. This allows them to let old ladies with nail files go free, but confiscate screwdrivers from gang members that are doing the shifty-eyes when saying they use it for work despite it being 2am on a Saturday.

Something to keep in mind is that when cops are talking to you about a concealed knife, there is a 99.999997% chance you did something stupid to attract their attention in the first place.
 
Ah this is why i repeatedly said..im not talking about practical law.

Practically speaking, cops are humans. They has discretion to determine a situation.

That is not what i was asking. I was asking the non-practical, As in:

Is having a knife handle only technically be having a knife (non-practically, but legally only), if it somehow had 1mm metal attached on the handle, and that 1mm is somehow considered a blade.

Thanks
 
Leo3an said:
Ah this is why i repeatedly said..im not talking about practical law.

Practically speaking, cops are humans. They has discretion to determine a situation.

That is not what i was asking. I was asking the non-practical, As in:

Is having a knife handle only technically be having a knife (non-practically, but legally only), if it somehow had 1mm metal attached on the handle, and that 1mm is somehow considered a blade.

Thanks
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I don't know what else to tell you. The law is exactly as I posted it, word for word. It's vague with no black and white answer. Laws like this are written that way on purpose so that discretion and "practicality" can be used. Case law for California similarly doesn't provide direct guidance on tiny details like your examples.
 
Thanks glistam,

I understand. I did not know. Much appreciated. I thiught there would be some law/regulation/definition of sorts to determine what constitutes a fixed knife. As in, it is not a knife if blade length is less than 1/4 inches long. Or if handle is over 3 feet long, it is not a knife with long handles but a spear, etc.
 
And there's the pesky "martial arts weapon" nominer than can be applied to anything at all if they want to.
 
Both Los Angeles county and city laws state that it is illegal to OPENLY carry a fixed-blade if the blade is 3" or longer (unless you are carrying it for a "legitimate" purpose and can prove it).

And as Glistam pointed out, it is illegal to carry CONCEALED a fixed-blade anywhere in the state of California, with no reference in the law to size.

You mentioned a multi-tool card, I remember a case in California where a person was arrested for carrying a "concealed dirk or dagger" for carrying one of those "cards" with the little blade in it. But I don't recall how the case was resolved.
 
I guess i will stick to folders. I just wanted to make a tiny ring blade because it is a fun project, easier to make then a folder, and I could probably attach it on the laptop bag strap or in the tiny pocket..

But noooooo California considers even a 0.25 inch blade that doesnt fold as a fixed blade? How do people even carry an Exacto blade? That is like a full 0.5 inch blade. Or a backup utility blades?? They are not on handles.. so it is a fixed blade.

Haha ok all sarcasm aside. I read through the replies, and i will just not make it. Dont want to make something that I cant carry or worry about. Will just stick to folder knives
 
In my earlier post I mentioned a case of a person being arrested and charged with carrying a concealed dirk or dagger as a result of being found in possession of a "credit card" multi-tool with a little fixed blade in it. I mentioned that I did not remember how that case was resolved. But in his post above "Man with no name" provided a link (top link) that references that case and explains how it ended- People v. Luke W: The defendant was convicted of the charge, but the conviction was overturned on appeal. The Appeals Court ruled that the little knife carried inside the "card" did not constitute a "concealed dirk or dagger", and that it was not "readily available as a stabbing weapon". That means it is LEGAL to carry one of those "credit card" multi-tools with the little fixed blade in it in California.

Than you "Man with no name" for providing that link and refreshing my memory.
 
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killgar said:
In my earlier post I mentioned a case of a person being arrested and charged with carrying a concealed dirk or dagger as a result of being found in possession of a "credit card" multi-tool with a little fixed blade in it. I mentioned that I did not remember how that case was resolved. But in his post above "Man with no name" provided a link (top link) that references that case and explains how it ended- People v. Luke W: The defendant was convicted of the charge, but the conviction was overturned on appeal. The Appeals Court ruled that the little knife carried inside the "card" did not constitute a "concealed dirk or dagger", and that it was not "readily available as a stabbing weapon". That means it is LEGAL to carry one of those "credit card" multi-tools with the little fixed blade in it in California.

Than you "Man with no name" for providing that link and refreshing my memory.
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Want to guess his legal bill? I'd guess 15k for first and another for the appeal. I wonder what his bail was. It's even harder to pay a lawyer if the bail strapped you.

There is no winning an arrest. You just pay a fortune to get back to where you were.
 
Is a folding knife that has a missing handle... considered a fixed blade?

Could a staple be defined as a fixed blade since the tip is sharp, and doesnt fold?

Is it illegal for an art student to have an x-acto knife in an art box because that is concealed carry of a fixed knife?
 
BBuser said:
Want to guess his legal bill? I'd guess 15k for first and another for the appeal. I wonder what his bail was. It's even harder to pay a lawyer if the bail strapped you.

There is no winning an arrest. You just pay a fortune to get back to where you were.
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You ain't kidding.

As someone who has been through the criminal justice system, and paid a small fortune to lawyers, and experienced the accommodations of both county and state, it's never a pleasure to deal with the system. In many cases, even if you eventually win, you still lose.

I asked my lawyer a knife-carry related question some years back, and after he gave me his legal opinion I asked him if there was any case law on the issue, he responded "No. Do you want to be the case law?". I said "Hell no!". As I'm sure Mr. Luke W. found out (along with many others) even being a successful case law can suck.

My policy is to stay well within the letter of the law. Not only do I avoid even a hint of illegality, but I steer clear of the "grey areas" of the law. After experiencing what the criminal justice system has to offer, I often give people the following advise- "When your freedom is on the line, go the extra mile to obey the law and stay out of jail".
 
Leo3an said:
Is a folding knife that has a missing handle... considered a fixed blade?

Could a staple be defined as a fixed blade since the tip is sharp, and doesnt fold?

Is it illegal for an art student to have an x-acto knife in an art box because that is concealed carry of a fixed knife?
Click to expand...

I don't know about a blade with a broken handle. Of course I can't imagine why someone would be carrying just a blade concealed upon their person. I do know that a fixed blade with a broken tip can be considered a "dirk or dagger" under the definition of CA law, and carrying such an item concealed would be a crime (there is case law on this).

A staple would not be considered a "dirk or dagger" under the law. Let's try to stay within the realm of reason and reality. California may be crazy, but it's not that crazy.

On a related note (common items that can be used to stab) if an item has a legitimate purpose other than use as a stabbing weapon, like a sharpened pencil, pen, scissors, screwdriver, etc, as long as the person carrying the item is carrying it for a legitimate purpose, and doesn't say that they are carrying it as a weapon, then it is not a crime for them to carry it concealed.

There is also case law that provides exceptions for carrying concealed food-prep knives. The California Appeals court did not want to make a criminal out of someone who, for example, wraps a knife in a paper towel and drops it in their jacket pocket with the intent to use it at lunch or a picnic, etc (this example is specifically mentioned in the courts decision).

There is also an exception for people who unintentionally carry a concealed fixed blade. Like for example- a person using a knife at work, they stick it in their back pocket (where it gets covered by their shirt tail), forget that it's there, and go out to lunch in public. The court says that since the person did not intend to conceal the knife, they did not violate the law.

An xacto knife carried in a art box by an art student would not be illegal for a variety of reasons. First, it has legitimate use other than as a weapon. Second, as long as it's not being carried inside the students clothing it is not "concealed upon the person". Third, whether or not it is "concealed upon the person" the fact that it's in a box means that it is not "readily available as a stabbing weapon".

There are several case laws in California regarding fixed blades and their carry. And although California can be rather restrictive and imposing in many of it's laws, I would describe our knife laws as being rather fair, reasonable, and lenient (though I don't agree with all of them).
 
killgar said:
I don't know about a blade with a broken handle. Of course I can't imagine why someone would be carrying just a blade concealed upon their person. I do know that a fixed blade with a broken tip can be considered a "dirk or dagger" under the definition of CA law, and carrying such an item concealed would be a crime (there is case law on this).

A staple would not be considered a "dirk or dagger" under the law. Let's try to stay within the realm of reason and reality. California may be crazy, but it's not that crazy.

On a related note (common items that can be used to stab) if an item has a legitimate purpose other than use as a stabbing weapon, like a sharpened pencil, pen, scissors, screwdriver, etc, as long as the person carrying the item is carrying it for a legitimate purpose, and doesn't say that they are carrying it as a weapon, then it is not a crime for them to carry it concealed.

There is also case law that provides exceptions for carrying concealed food-prep knives. The California Appeals court did not want to make a criminal out of someone who, for example, wraps a knife in a paper towel and drops it in their jacket pocket with the intent to use it at lunch or a picnic, etc (this example is specifically mentioned in the courts decision).

There is also an exception for people who unintentionally carry a concealed fixed blade. Like for example- a person using a knife at work, they stick it in their back pocket (where it gets covered by their shirt tail), forget that it's there, and go out to lunch in public. The court says that since the person did not intend to conceal the knife, they did not violate the law.

An xacto knife carried in a art box by an art student would not be illegal for a variety of reasons. First, it has legitimate use other than as a weapon. Second, as long as it's not being carried inside the students clothing it is not "concealed upon the person". Third, whether or not it is "concealed upon the person" the fact that it's in a box means that it is not "readily available as a stabbing weapon".

There are several case laws in California regarding fixed blades and their carry. And although California can be rather restrictive and imposing in many of it's laws, I would describe our knife laws as being rather fair, reasonable, and lenient (though I don't agree with all of them).
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Thank you very much. This explains everything I wanted to know!
 
The concealed carry provision is the most often charged knife-related offense in recent years. According to People v. Mitchell, the intent of this law is to prevent people from being surprise attacked by very dangerous stabbing-type knives. Though the statute sounds relatively limited, case law has proven this to be untrue. First, often cases report simply ludicrous claims about how knives are carried. In People v. Castillolopez, for example, the police claimed that the defendant had a counterfeit Swiss Army Knife stored open in his pocket. In Mitchell the police claimed that the defendant had a five-inch dagger with an “exposed” tip stored between his belt and his pants. These types of assertions are commonplace in knife-related case law, despite being hard to fathom as true. Also, the statute’s concealment component is relatively easy for the State to prove. According to Mitchell, the State does not need to prove that a person intended to carry the knife concealed, but simply they were carrying a dirk knife or dagger AND that it was concealed.

https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/california/
 
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