Camp Knife Challenge Results!!!!!

Joezilla said:
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Thanks buddy I knew I could count on ya !:D:thumbup:
 
Being cut down to size by the pros is what its all about. I thought my knives were pretty good and was told that by my bladesmithing mentor many times at the beginning. Just as I was comfortable with my fit and finish he said.. "Okay lets start making knives like a grown-up, now?" Then it started all over again... he tore me a new one! It seems I can do nothing right in his eyes, now... but its pushing me to do better. Every once in a while, I get surprise visits in my shop (mostly to steal my good belts) but also to tweek my work area or inspect my WIP pieces. I can't begin to say how valuable that is to a new maker.

I had a bit of a head start on fit and finish, having previously worked in the tool & die industry for 14yrs. I went from using micrometers, verniers, indicators and working in "tenths of a thousandth of an inch" tolerances, to swinging a hammer at a hot piece of steel.

Nowadays, as KGD will attest, I don't even pick up a ruler until someone bothers me for a measurement.

My style hides the many flaws that are actually in the piece. I'm lucky that way. If I tried to pull off the look of Ray or Bruce... all the scratches and flats would pop out.

I was suprised (pleasantly so) that Brian did a F&F section in the testing.



As far as "little people" helping me in the shop... well I won't deny that one...

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koyote said:
I'm going to come down on 69's side - I consider myself fair to middling with fit and finish, but I'm far, far better than I was before I had some knifemakers grill me and talk to me about my early work.

Two things going on here-

1: experience- it takes time to get to even be able to see the details- I remember Kevin Kashen talking about how it would take his students several knives to be able to see scratch marks or fit flaws. The whole thing goes faster if you have a good critique now and then.

2: patience. There's not a single issue raised with anyone's fit and finish that couldn't be solved with a couple finer grits and either 20 minutes extra prep and prefit time or 20-30 minutes extra finish time. I'm not saying we all need to duplicate the work of the mastersmith who is cheating for Rick :D :D :D - but pulling a tang from a rough 80/120 grit finish to a smooth 400 grit isn't going to take a lot of time (that's an example, have no idea at all if it's actually relevant to any one person's knife in the thread- it's just one of those easy tweaks that sometimes bugs me when people I know do top quality work leave it out.)

Now, There's things that either take a machine shop and CAD or require a lot of experience- my handles are almost all very slightly asymmetrical. I see it, I pay attention to it, but I finish by the 'feel in the hand' and it slowly, ever so slowly, improves.

And there's things that take a ton of time- those things become big economic choices for a maker. 8 hours in a $150 knife or 20 hours in a $600 knife? There's tooling limitations, which I know all about- can have a big effect on how long it takes you to accomplish a certain degree of fit and finish.
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There's a lot of truth here. This is where I'm at in my knifemaking journey. I think I have a very decent handle on functionality, and my knife performed pretty well in this competition. Where I need to improve the most is in that fit and finish. But Koyote is right, I don't think I'll ever be able to hand profile a knife and have it look like it came off a water-jet. I mean maybe, but it's years away.

There are, however, things I CAN improve on, and it's the stuff that Brian pointed out in my fit and finish review. Handle gaps? Unacceptable. Parts of the exposed tang where I didn't grind off all the forge scale? Unacceptable. This kind of stuff I can fix, but as Koyote said, it REALLY helps to have someone else point everything out to you. I'll try my damndest to correct these errors, and I'll produce a better knife the very next time I make one.
 
Noshtero said:
... and I'll produce a better knife the very next time I make one.
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Of course you will... and you may regret ever selling past knives that weren't up to your current level of F&F. I had a hard time dealing with that fact. I would make an improvement to my process and immediately want to replace previous models that were sold... but that is ridiculous. They were the best I could do at the time and that's what counts. Always do your best and you'll keep improving.
 
Judging by the discussion on these last few pages, this thread is already paying dividends! I commend all the makers involved for taking the critique with class and striving to be better. When makers make better knives, we all win!
 
Holy crap that was a ton of work. Thank you for all those who put in so much effort. This was awesome.
 
Stomper said:
I knew it was not you making those nice knives, they probably do all the knife work while you sweep! ;)
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More like they do the work while he sleeps!:D
 
Hey, they do a great job... and work for marshmellows! You can't buy labour for that... I suggest you make a couple for yourself. That's the funnest part.
 
all they need is some green hair and pointy shoes.

oompa loompa loopity dee, I make Ricks blades and work for free
 
I certainly meant no disrespect to any makers. As a new maker myself, I was simply stating that it is nice to look at knives from somebody elses eyes. I know for a fact that the last knife I made that was in the bush/camp style certainly would have had a bunch of flaws that would have been pictured prominently as well.

Everybody talks of fit and finish but for a neophyte like myself, this particular compare/contrast really hits the point home as to just how important it really is.
 
Magnussen said:
Hey, they do a great job... and work for marshmellows! You can't buy labour for that... I suggest you make a couple for yourself. That's the funnest part.
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I use my three grandaughters, they work for cookies, and when they get tired of working, you send them home!

These two are pretty good...

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but this one just wants to sleep on the job!

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Something for next time that might be cool.

I have noticed that even when made of the same type steel that the amount of cutting to dull the blade varies a lot by the maker.

I think that testing hardness and how long it takes to dull it would be an interesting trial.
 
I think fit and finish is very important. I put a lot of effort into mine. I also put a lot into the function of my knives but I think most people really want a good looking knife, especially those outside of the W&SS crowd. It's a handmade knife and it is special. It wasn't bought off a store. It was bought from the person who made it and a lot of money was spent on it. I know this is how I felt when I was a collector and not yet a maker. I wanted something I can admire just as much as it can cut. When I make a knife, I'm never happy with it unless it's something that I would buy myself. This also effects how I price my knives.

I just do the best I can on every part of the knife. I hope to improve just like everyone else.. This knife I'm very proud of because it's all machine finish. I just started doing machine finishes this year and I think I'm getting better at it. I find it more difficult than hand sanding but it takes less time. Of course, I'm very picky and I can find flaws in my blades that others might not. It's just the artist in me.:)
 
:rolleyes:I'm just a buyer/user/collector (somewhere in there), but I can attest that we DO appreciate all the extra work involved in creating good F&F. Those of us who've been around awhile DO learn to detect and appreciate this sort of thing.

That said, I remain impressed with every knife in this testing group. I believe each one is a solid bush knife.

And I'm pretty blown away by the creativity, the hard work, and some of the RIDICULOUSLY high F&F.:):D:thumbup:
 
hollowdweller said:
Something for next time that might be cool.

I have noticed that even when made of the same type steel that the amount of cutting to dull the blade varies a lot by the maker.

I think that testing hardness and how long it takes to dull it would be an interesting trial.
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That could take a while, HD.... unless you're chopping knots. Perhaps hacking at some seasonded hickory would speed it up.

Brian still has my knife.... give her hell, buddy.... let me know.... lol.


Rick
 
Magnussen said:
That could take a while, HD.... unless you're chopping knots. Perhaps hacking at some seasonded hickory would speed it up.

Brian still has my knife.... give her hell, buddy.... let me know.... lol.


Rick
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Rick,

What I do is take like a long branch say 4' long approx the same diameter and then keep whittling it in half till it becomes appreciably duller.

But I guess you could also rockwell test the edge?
 
hollowdweller said:
Rick,

But I guess you could also rockwell test the edge?
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I wouldn't use a Rockwell count to guage how long a knife will hold it's edge. The geometry has just as much to do with it as the hardness.

5160 performs great at 58RC, while O1 is comfortable at 60-62RC.... that doesn't mean the O1 will outlast the 5160.


Rick
 
koyote said:
I still am going to stick to my original suggestion- a testing team. While I think you were very good at being objective, different styles and ideas of knife use might mean a broader experience in testing- and dude, you NEEDED like, 4 more pairs of hands for the amount of work you had!!!!!
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Trial by committee? Personally, I can't see that working any better. You get the mean of 4 scores in each test and then people just start asking questions about consensus or not for each test. In the end it becomes more about who the reviewers are than who the knife makers are. There we go again, the Russian judge shows his bias :D

Logistically I also see this as tough to do. Does 4 more hands reduce the work? Not if everybody repeats the same test for all the knives. If they don't do it that way then you can make any comparisons. So you've only quadrupled the amount of work not alleviated it. Then there is getting everybody together or sending knives from place to place. Both are difficult operations to do.

Perhaps a compromise could be to have a separate section, maybe like F&F, but with ergos. Here you have multiple people hold the knife in different grips and provide a running commentary about handle comfort. Preferably target the freaks like spooky with his crazy big hands and Rick with teeny weeny mitts :D

Besides, I already posted this in John's forum, but I think there is an existing venue for multiple reviewers/knife. That is called the passaround. Take a look at the Koyote bushcrafter leuku and Walter Davis's bushcrafter passaround thread. Here are great examples of pages and pages of independent reviewer commentary on ergos and knife performance. Not everybody did the same tests, but then I think that is even better. A multiplicity of hypotheses tested across users whose perspectives of what constitute the most important tasks are evaluated. Of course, what passaround threads lack are model comparisons. There are of course logistical and insurance based reasons for that.

BTW - awesome running commentary on the makers about fitness. What a great discussion happening in this thread!
 
Hey Guys...

Awesome stuff...

Congrats to the makers,, all look pretty Sweet..

Congrats to Rick... That's a Frigging nice knife...

BTW..

I often get to see Rick's work before anyone else does,, and literally watched the birth of a knife maker from nearly the beginning... It's been like watching a child grow up before your eyes..

With each new knife he impresses me even more...

He's worked hard to get to where he is, and takes what he does Extremely Serious.. He's most Critical about his own work, which is why his quality just keeps getting better and better..

I can't even imagine what he'll be producing in a few years...

nice work Vrian...

That is One Hell of a good article...

ttyle

Eric
O/ST
 
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