Carbide Hardness Chart

DeadboxHero said:
Wade, it's all melted together.

It's the balance/amounts of C,Cr,V %wt element volume and the tempertures the Carbides form at and cooling rate from molten to solid that determines size and the amount of M7C3, M23C6 and MC type formed. Not what you described.

Here is a fun video of the PM process used for making high Carbide volume steels.
Click to expand...

Thanks Shawn. That fits with the patents and other publications I've read on that process. We have some PM processes and while running a project I was doing research on the subject and it naturally led me to steel, which of course sidetracked me for a while! :D

The atomizing is really cool (literally and figuratively) and is not something we do so I don't have first hand experience but it's fascinating technology.
 
Shawn is right and I stand corrected. There are no chromium carbides in M4. I was thinking there would be some, but "nyet". And speaking about my "dream steel", I wondered about having a high carbon % like 1.4 causing large vanadium carbide clusters. I bet it would. It would have amazing abrasion resistance, but wouldn't be very tough at all. Probably better to lower the carbon % back down to just 1%. That's why CPM 3V is so tough. It has 3% vanadium, but it only has 0.8% carbon, and is a very well balanced steel chemistry. There is always a give/take relationship with steel properties!
 
samuraistuart said:
Shawn is right and I stand corrected. There are no chromium carbides in M4. I was thinking there would be some, but "nyet". And speaking about my "dream steel", I wondered about having a high carbon % like 1.4 causing large vanadium carbide clusters. I bet it would. It would have amazing abrasion resistance, but wouldn't be very tough at all. Probably better to lower the carbon % back down to just 1%. That's why CPM 3V is so tough. It has 3% vanadium, but it only has 0.8% carbon, and is a very well balanced steel chemistry. There is always a give/take relationship with steel properties!
Click to expand...
Z-wear/PD1/CPM-Cruwear class steels might be your "dream steel" then. As tough as 3v at high hardness and a bit more wear resistant. If you don't mind the extra chromium that is.

DeadboxHero DeadboxHero Shawn, have you had a chance to play with Aogami super by any chance? From chemical composition stand point 1.2562 and blue super should be similar, but from my use and some reports it seems that 1.2562 has a bit more edge stability and toughness, might not be true or due to usual for each steel heat treat differences, but just curious.
 
wade7575 said:
I was reading an article the other week and forget where I seen it but I think you would have enjoyed it,I forget the exact steel it was about but I think it was S110v and the how carbide's are formed.

From what I recall it said that chromium inhibit's vanadium's ability to form carbides so they use a double crucible method where they melt the vanadium in a separate crucible in top of the other one where it form's vanadium carbides first then it's sprayed into the lower crucible at the end of the process.
Click to expand...
No, that's not how it's done.
 
I'd say mostly HT differences, these steels are very sensitive to temps and soaks.

Now since I control the HT and can select the properties they offer I choose 1.2562 over Aogami Super because it has a higher working hardness and better wear resistance. It has the most WC tungsten Monocarbide out of any available steel.

Which is why I call 1.2562 "Ultra Blue" I feel its a tier above super blue with what it offers in capable hands.

So, it's very hard and has lots of carbides but sharpens on my chosera alumina ceramic water stones like a dream, the carbides are fine, tungsten being weak at forming Carbides acutually helps keep the WC fine as well as refining with HT before austenitizing

What a fantastic steel. A sharpeners dream steel and the definition of "sticky sharp"

Just not good for shock and impact, and steels that are good at shock and impact don't make as good of slicers


ace said:
Z-wear/PD1/CPM-Cruwear class steels might be your "dream steel" then. As tough as 3v at high hardness and a bit more wear resistant. If you don't mind the extra chromium that is.

DeadboxHero DeadboxHero Shawn, have you had a chance to play with Aogami super by any chance? From chemical composition stand point 1.2562 and blue super should be similar, but from my use and some reports it seems that 1.2562 has a bit more edge stability and toughness, might not be true or due to usual for each steel heat treat differences, but just curious.
Click to expand...
 
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DeadboxHero said:
I'd say mostly HT differences, these steels are very sensitive to temps and soaks.

Now since I control the HT and can select the properties they offer I choose 1.2562 over Aogami Super because it has a higher working hardness and better wear resistance. It has the most WC tungsten Monocarbide out of any available steel.

Which is why I call 1.2562 "Ultra Blue" I feel its a tier above super blue with what it offers in capable hands.

So, it's very hard and has lots of carbides but sharpens on my chosera alumina ceramic water stones like a dream, the carbides are fine, tungsten being weak at forming Carbides acutually helps keep the WC fine as well as refining with HT before austenitizing

What a fantastic steel. A sharpeners dream steel and the definition of "sticky sharp"

Just not good for shock and impact, and steels that are good at shock and impact don't make as good of slicers
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot. Very much appreciate your insight. I have a few gyutos in 1.2562 and my experience with it has been excellent. I also much prefer it to super blue.
 
Here is another interesting fact. There are no Chromium Carbides in 52100.

1.50% wt Cr is not enough to make M23C6/K1 or M7C3/K2 Carbides.

So, some of the chromium atoms go towards filling spots in the Fe3C crystal unit cells making a more complex iron carbide M3C, where "M" stands for Fe,Cr even Mn rich

The adavantage is finer carbides at higher volume than 1095.

MUXrA8T.jpg
 
Titanium Monocarbide TiC (3000-3200Hv) runs harder than Vanadium Monocarbide VC(2800-3000Hv)
Unfortunately, its not something we see in knife steels because of the high melting point and very strong ability of titanium to form carbides both leading to problems. This causes the size of TiC to be massive if used without modification to the regular PM Steel process when using Titanium for carbide forming at high volumes similar to Vanadium. Yet, there is a special steel made by modifying the PM process to bypass TiC growth when used at high volume. This Special steel may be able to unseat the current champion of high vanadium carbide volume steels in rope cutting without having the poor performance of solid carbide cobalt materials which I found to be too stiff and brittle to create and hold a good edge.
A TiC rich steel will absolutely need diamond/CBN to sharpen without question.
 
Interesting chart(s) Thank you for posting.

Out of curiosity, which carbide is used for rings on wire line fishing rods that don't have roller guides?
I also recall "carbide rings" (note quotes) used on rods that had grooves worn in them from heavy nylon mono filament, braided Dacron, and the new "super braids" made with Kevlar and such.
I can understand Agate rings getting a groove worn into them … but carbide???
 
I have no idea what's used in fishing gear.

This thread is focused on carbides found in knife steels rather than Carbides in cemented carbide materials with cobalt binders for parts,drill bits, etc
Could be WC, W2C, TaC, TiC at 70-90+% volume.

Doesn't work good for knives in my experience so I have zero interest.


afishhunter said:
Interesting chart(s) Thank you for posting.

Out of curiosity, which carbide is used for rings on wire line fishing rods that don't have roller guides?
I also recall "carbide rings" (note quotes) used on rods that had grooves worn in them from heavy nylon mono filament, braided Dacron, and the new "super braids" made with Kevlar and such.
I can understand Agate rings getting a groove worn into them … but carbide???
Click to expand...
 
Bad News

There are no PM steels that have WC, W2C Carbides.

It's all softer W6C (M6C 1600Hv)

Maxamet, M4, S390, T15 etc

Nothing, all various amounts of M6C and Vanadium carbide (MC) if Vanadium is present.



Even if the steel has 19%wt tungsten in it's chemistry. If it's a air hardening steel with +3%wt chromium for hardenability it will just be W6C Carbides.

Tungsten is a weak carbide former.
So you won't get crazy wear resistance from tungsten but it will have other benefits to the strength and hardness of the steel depending on HT.

 
Blues Blues

:D not gunna lie, I was low key depressed when I found out that's not how it works.

Still some advantages to the high tungsten pm steels, I've made a few knives in Maxamet and have one I'm working on in Z-max and CPM T15.

Stuff all pushes 70rc with the right HT.
Killer edges just not gunna smoke 15v and Rex121 in wear resistance.
 
I admire your drive, Shawn. It's what makes the great ones great. Keep at it. I'm a fan, even if I can't keep up with what represents the tip of the spear from one week to the next.
 
xDCtqA5.jpg


A micrograph of a new steel that will outcut CPM Rex 121

HRC is not used for carbide hardness measurements but I thought it would be more relatable to folks.

VC 2800hv
TiC 3200hv

Should be fun to grind into a knife.
 
The Titanium Carbide Steel is called Ferro Titanit WFN.

Think of it like a stainless PM tool steel in a titanium carbide exoskeleton.
H79ZYNm.jpg
 
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