Review Carbon Fiber molded into Curly / Quilted "wood" figure for scales / handles

[timos-]

Standard 1/3rd sq ft small panel size is 9.7 x 5.5 as minimum size, while standard full sq ft is 9.7 x 15 with bookmatch running down middle of panel for mirror image scales. I don't have a problem making 5 x 12 though, but grain direction will be stipulated.

5x12 in. is just a standard size most laminate materials come in. nothing special about it other than it seems to be a little cheaper per sq. in. this way than just buying sets of scales. Whatever your process is to yield the best price per sq. in. i would be happy with. I have payed 40$ for a set of silver twill CF scales, I think thats pretty expensive for what it is ..but then again your stuff is completely unique/ not comparable to anything so, I am just hoping it will be available at all I would love to see it on one of my dove-wa handles

 

[John Blazy]

"I am testing 3/4" thick laminations next week, but it will require pre-order . . .
I will likely have to wait until sales are brisk enough that you make the sizes I need as standard sizes. 3/4" thick material wouldn't help me much as it would be too much waste for scales and not enough thickness for the kinds of hidden tang handles I make. I will be watching your progress with interest.

Thanks for staying tuned. Making a small mold right now specifically to see how thick I can go to establish control data. Will post pics next Wednesday when I see the results.

I got a set of thin scales. I am mounting it on a folder this weekend and will post comments and photos.

I'll reply in detail to your PM, but for those that received my thinner pcs, you can epoxy some G10 or similar to the back to add thickness in case you want to use the thinner stuff, otherwise, I am planning to re-sample some of you with .160" and up. Some have received scales at about 1/8" in which I filled the back with graphite colored epoxy to maintain thickness without having to machine off the back making it thinner, but future laminations will be made over thick so I can machine both faces, as the added CF cost cancels out the labor of epoxy fill, so I'm just going all solid from now on, which also means that the material will be interchangeable face to back, just one side has tighter waves and the other is a mirror image, kindof male / female.

5x12 in. is just a standard size most laminate materials come in. nothing special about it other than it seems to be a little cheaper per sq. in. this way than just buying sets of scales. Whatever your process is to yield the best price per sq. in. i would be happy with. I have payed 40$ for a set of silver twill CF scales, I think thats pretty expensive for what it is ..but then again your stuff is completely unique/ not comparable to anything so, I am just hoping it will be available at all I would love to see it on one of my dove-wa handles

My molds are based on stock widths of uni carbon fiber (39.5" wide), so it efficiently cuts in divisions accordingly, thus 20" wide out of the oven (widens under pressure by 1/2") in my 20-1/2" wide molds. Then the three "in-mold" bookmatches makes 9.8 wide usable stock (bookmatch right down the center), in which a pc that wide by 15" is about one sq ft. The bookmatches are for cutting guitar fretboards, and the added benefit conveniently creates mirror image scales as well. Which brings up another question for i4Marc, Why not epoxy two 1/2" thick bookmatched pcs to get your 1" thick pc? I have a feeling that full 1" thick laminations are going to require 2" of CF buildup in order to machine down to 1", which will require side containment mold design and who knows what other issues I will have that may cause it to become nearly two grand per sq ft. Maybe not, because I think 1/2" will be way less than a grand psf. I am just as interested in the future tests as you are Marc.

 

[John Blazy]

Ok, **** getting real now. Hope my patent holds up. Todays lamination went well - void free 1/4" and 3/8" quarter panels (10 x 28), then my thick test with brass interleaf went . . . well take a look. 5/8" thick with 5 mil brass. Tiny voids you see are mostly epoxy dark spots, mostly filled, but dark. Slick as a baby's bottom after I lapped this 1.5 x 6" pc all the way through 900 grit diamond, followed by cerium. Great interlaminar adhesion of the brass. Couldn't find any change in my pocket when shooting the pic for scale, so I used my pocket diamond hone (1" wide). Will post video tomorrow.

Will be in new sample kits, and re-samples to those that got the thin stuff (sending .185").

 

[gunfixrjoe]

Absolutely beautiful

 

[milkbaby]

Wood will always be my favorite handle material, but this latest experiment is awesome looking. I think the voids actually add to the character rather than take away. Very cool!

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

OK, I got a chance to check out the samples. I will post some photos when I get a break, but it is 16 hour days right now.

The colored material isn't of much use to knifemakers. It is a foil with a clear plastic top layer. The samples had 1/4" and 1/2" thick pieces, but that was 95% clear acrylic with the reflective backing.

OK, so on to the laminated carbon fiber curlly maple. It looks great as a slab. I make black dyed curly maple, which comes out dark grey, whih looks very similar to this stuff. On looks, I give it a 10.

I set it up as a set of scales for a folding dagger. I was startled at how easy it cut. It was like cutting soft wood.

I drilled the holes for the screws, and when I went to do the counterbore seats I almost went right though the back side. It drilled like soft plastic, ....hmmmm.

I went to the grinder and decided to start with a 400 grit belt to see how it sanded. It was like sanding balsa wood. It ground down in seconds. This was most what I expected compared to the CF amd G-10 handle material I have used. I stopped before it was all gone and it still looked really amazing.

I took it to the buffer, and after a few seconds, I had buffed a corner right off the scale. It is really soft.

I tested the scale with various things to see what would mar it. My fingernail left a streak, but not a scratch. A coin put a deep scrath on it, and a piece of steel cut right into it.

Summation:
Pretty as it is, it is too soft for knife handles. I believe the resin that binds the fibers is some sort of acrylic, and not a harder epoxy or phenolic.
For a decorative object, ot would be great but not for anything that will see wear and abuse like a knfe handle.
The second iswsue is the base substrate that the CfF is bult up on is some sort of soft gray plastic. It is about 20% of the scale thickness, and shows as a lighter gray layer. It reminds me of the old battleship 1/4" linolium ( if anyone rememberts that)

 

[John Blazy]

Nice, smart review - thanks Stacy! I knew I should have waited to send the unbacked CF in full thickness. Its epoxy binder, BTW, fully cured. Let the games begin.

 

[John Blazy]

Wire wheel abrasion test proves that its not "as soft as Balsa wood". Bubinga on the left, Figured CF in middle and Wenge on the right. I did not have woven CF or G10 or any other hard material besides those two hardwoods to test. Granted, the wet season rings in the Wenge are very soft, but this gives you a little idea of "common wear" abrasion (why I used a wire wheel).

I believe that what Stacy is experiencing is the easy fracturing of CF on fresh hard abrasives, because there is much less epoxy resin in my Uni CF vs the amount required in woven CF, because woven requires epoxy to fill the voids in the gaps where the weave overlaps. My raw CF has 37% epoxy to CF ratio, and I actually add more epoxy during a proprietary step. This still results in an easy machining matrix, but plenty hard enough for scales. When I use silicon carbide abrasives (longest lasting for glass, since I run a glass shop), the discs cut great for first two minutes, then get so dull that they just burnish the surface, so I switched to all diamond.

 

[Natlek]

37% epoxy ? Almost half epoxy and half carbon fiber ? I don t think that is good for scale .For strong durable scale you need as much as it is possible less epoxy .... Imagine if fishing rod are made with 37 % epoxy ???
You cast this or use press ?

 

[John Blazy]

All common CFRP is about 37% resin content. My supplier is showing 35% on the specific Uni that I use, so I was off by a few percent.

 

[kuraki]

By weight or volume? Out of curiosity.

 

[John Blazy]

Weight, usually. Nearly universal in the resin world for weight, not volume. However thats a lot of resin considering CF is extremely light. Will look into it closer. I use a lot of raw CF as well, and its quite heavy in its raw form. Basically like glass.
This whole debate is easily answered when working with this stuff.

 

[kuraki]

I've worked with it a bit, both layup and using aerospace material. I was thinking that epoxy being 37% by weight actually means it's a lower percentage of the composite by volume but I could be wrong.

 

[John Blazy]

Got my new diamond surfacing jig up and running to surface the latest figured CF, so I can send the right thickness samples and small orders. If you look carefully and criticize it, that is understandable, but, like the Millenium Falcon, it's got it where it counts. And its temporary, just to get me by until I can acquire and adapt a vertical mill to do my surfacing. The new "HerringCone" figure pattern was surfaced with the jig (pc on right in pic) then just took minimal smoothing with my diamond lap to get the pc on the left to look awesome, and hit my spec thickness evenly.
The HerringCone pattern is a morph between two motifs - sawtooth herringbone that I always wanted to do, combined with the line quality of the resin infused pinecones that are popular now for scales. Then I added a very nice feature for those of making folders. I designed the pattern to curve according to what I deemed a common radius found in many knife handles - 6". Most folder bodies have more parabolic, variable curves that differ from maker to maker, so I just picked 6", and should look good in most scales. I didn't spend too much time on this design, so if anyone wants to chime in on a better radius, I am all ears, as I have not made my larger master molds yet for this pattern.


The diamond surfacer allows for fully submerged grinding. Test panel got me all wet, so I made the blade shroud. Much drier to work with now. It machines .060" in one pass, and takes four passes per 10 x 28" panel side.

 

[Sanchez]

Just fyi there are existing examples of press patterned composites in the industry. Hogue inc. (grips&knives) has a pretty solid patent on it to cover their G-mascus product. Knifemaker Allen Elishewitz has used a press patterned carbon fiber on several knives.
We have done several test panels here ladder patterning our t800 uni prepeg in a 0/90 configuration. I was never pleased with the amount of waste but the reason it was never brought to market is that it we felt it was in violation of the Hogue patent.

Matt Diskin
Fibersmith.com

 

[John Blazy]

Just fyi there are existing examples of press patterned composites in the industry. Hogue inc. (grips&knives) has a pretty solid patent on it to cover their G-mascus product. Knifemaker Allen Elishewitz has used a press patterned carbon fiber on several knives.
We have done several test panels here ladder patterning our t800 uni prepeg in a 0/90 configuration. I was never pleased with the amount of waste but the reason it was never brought to market is that it we felt it was in violation of the Hogue patent.

Matt Diskin
Fibersmith.com

Thanks, Matt, for this info - part of why I post here, to draw upon the vast knowledge base. When I wrote the patent, it hung on mimicking wood figure using the chatoyance effect of fibers - two unique elements that separate my CF material from other pressed composites, which are common. I have mostly been concerned about violating patent rights in texture pressed wood veneer composites rather than Hogue's G-mascus, as there are companies that layup wood veneers then press them into "figure", which is much closer to my CF, as they are pursuing the mimicking of the natural patterning of wood figure. Hogue is pressing non-wood figure (more geometric damascus patterns) into non-chatoyant panels, utilizing the aesthetics of different color layering for the damascus effect without any chatoyance. My product differs in that it is using the light reflective chatoyance of CF to mimic wood figure and other natural, random patterns. Not looking forward to the inevitable cease and desist orders.

I looked at your products too, and you definitely have the best looking marbled CF I have seen. Tricky ground here, because CF is harnessed for its chatoyance in many manifestations, which will come to bear on all challenges.
Personally, I would rather partner than contend.

 

[Sanchez]

John. I wish you the best of luck with this. The compsite world is vast and there is always a need for innovation. One suggestion I could make is to try this with a spread tow uni. Something around 20-30gsm or even finer. The super fine layers will make this absolutely explode.
We have over 5 tons of T800 uni prepreg in our freezer. If you ever get an autoclave let me know, I could help you cut those raw material costs

Matt Diskin
Fibersmith.com

 

[John Blazy]

John. I wish you the best of luck with this. The compsite world is vast and there is always a need for innovation. One suggestion I could make is to try this with a spread tow uni. Something around 20-30gsm or even finer. The super fine layers will make this absolutely explode.
We have over 5 tons of T800 uni prepreg in our freezer. If you ever get an autoclave let me know, I could help you cut those raw material costs

Matt Diskin
Fibersmith.com

Go ahead an send me a PM with your phn #, as we can talk more. I agree that finer spread tow uni would ensure void free, and perhaps get better "pop" but in order to lay up 1/4" of uni to get .160 of finished material, I would have to spend all day just laying up the hundreds of layers, because I do a proprietary step between layers, which is manually intense. I currently use .011 uni, 300 gsm, and have done 150 gsm, and even .022 uni. Honestly, I can't wait to try all different methods in my head, along with exotic interleaf effects with my pearls, metals and solid colors for pronounced line quality, but as you pointed out, my time is short to get this market proven, as that is my main trump card to garner investment and partnerships in order to defend my product, while growing it. I have already decided to put away 30% of profits just for a defense fund.

I just spent the last half hour ruining my arms milling the top .060" off my panels, and I am getting too old to be doing this, and want to simply license it for others to mfr. Instagram has exploded with knife guys wanting samples, and already placing orders (none of them say its too soft Stacy), so half of me wants to sell the idea, but the other half knows that I have all the equipment in place to do this, so why not stick to it as long as I can.
Not sure I need an autoclave just yet. My current system provides just enough pressure with my modifications. Sure would like to see other ways of doing it for sure.

 

[Josh Rider]

I’m looking forward to some more of those pics that guys are supposed to be taking!

 

[John Blazy]

Pics of finished knives coming soon, after the TKI show.
Took a couple weeks to make new mold fixtures for my new patterns, get some post machining tooling, etc and did the new MicroQuilt below while at it. For those that haven't received samples yet - they are coming this week as I am off the races with better void free panels with my new tooling. Swamped making fretboards and acoustic bridges for the NAMM show in a couple weeks, but will be focusing on knife scale stock regardless of how well NAMM goes. I want to get a nice left handed beveled chefs knife with my CF in the handle from someone someday.