Cardboard Massacre!!!!

[Buzzbait]

I had the afternoon off, so I thought I’d have a little fun. I took all of the knives I paid over a hundred dollars for, and pitted them against each other. Each knife was vigorously sharpened on a SharpMaker 204 before testing, and all at the same 30-degree angle. Each knife cut a mess of corrugated cardboard, and I recorded the ease at which each knife cut the cardboard. Please note that this test was entirely subjective. I merely tried to be fair in use of blade pressure and length of stroke. There is absolutely nothing scientific about my testing method. I just had a bunch of knives sitting on my desk, and got the urge to start cutting.

Here is the order in which I preferred the knives, number one being the top cardboard cutter.

1. Camillus Mini Talon - $134.00 – Talonite blade
2. Stag Dozier K-4 - $250.00 – D-2 blade
3. Large Sebenza - $295.00 – BG-42 blade
4. Stag Buck 110 - $115.00 – BG-42 blade
5. Spyderco Military - $120.00 – CPM 440V blade
6. Benchmade Ares - $125.00 – 154CM blade

The results were pretty interesting. The Talonite rocked the house down, especially considering its tiny size. The flat grind probably helped to counteract the unusually thick blade size for this small a knife. Camillus and Rob Simonich get big kudos for this knife.

The Dozier came very close to the mini-Talon. Bob Dozier can make a heck of a knife. His combination of D-2 and awesome blade geometry get big awards here.

The Sebenza lagged just a bit behind the Dozier, but did very well. Chris Reeve has an outstanding hollow grind.

The Buck 110 did beautifully, especially considering the price. There’s a reason why this design has been around for so long. It cuts!!!


The Spyderco Military didn’t fair nearly as well as I thought it would. I figured that the big old flat grind would sail through cardboard, but it didn’t.

The Benchmade Ares was quite disappointing. I don’t know if it was the blade geometry or the smooth 154CM, but it lagged far behind the rest of the pack.

So here’s the low down in terms of price. I picked some good Internet prices for each knife at random, and without extra costs for exotic handle slabs.

Mini-Talon - $134.00
Dozier K-4 - $145.00
Large Sebenza - $345.00
Buck 110 - $65.00
Spyderco Military - $120.00
Benchmade Ares - $120.00

The Mini-Talon is expensive, seeing as you can get a full sized Dozier for almost the same price. Then again, these knives are an apples and oranges kind of deal. You buy Talonite for it’s special properties on top of great cardboard eating performance. You buy the Dozier because it will cut anything well of almost any size.

The Sebenza didn’t show huge bang for the buck, but the Sebenza is special. The quality of craftsmanship and the lock couldn’t be counted for in the testing. The venerable Buck 110 easily had the best bang for the buck, pun intended. And with a Paul Bos heat treated BG-42 blade, who could complain?

The Military and Ares just don’t do it for cardboard. I love both knives, but certainly not for cardboard. The Military has the best liner lock I’ve yet used, and the Ares has the awesome Axis lock. These knives have strengths, but just not in the cardboard arena.

Well, gotta’ go. I better clean this mess up before the wife gets home.

 

[Jeff Clark]

Thanks for your effort and report. Cardboard is one of my pseudo-standards for practical cutting performance. The big surprise to me was the low performance of the Military. Is it possible that you didn't get it as sharp as the others? The geometry of the Military blade should have been excellent and 440V should take a very sharp edge. It is pretty hard to sharpen the high vanadium 440V. You might want to try sharpening it with a fine diamond hone. If you don't have one you might find a knife shop or hardware store that has a display unit on their counter.

Anyway, thanks again.

PS. It sure is hard to beat the value of a Buck knife with a BG42 blade. It is my favorite stainless because of the way it sharpens, cuts, and its toughness.

 

[knifenerd]

I did some cardboard cutting recently, too. I came up with a major revelation: a little Victorinox Super Tinker main blade was almost up there with the "big boys".

Conclusion? The little SAK blade is very thin. I think that was the difference.

 

[Buzzbait]

Jeff - The Military shaves hair like it's going out of style, and also does very well on thin paper. Maybe the blade is little too polished to get a good grab on the cardboard. I've always had this problem with it though, and associate some of the problem with the CPM 440V. The knife cuts very efficiently on some surfaces, but never gets the grab that I want.

I've dulled and resharpened the knife a few times now, and always get the same exact result. I guess that 440V just isn't for me. It's too bad. All of the Spyderco knives that I really like are in 440V.


Knifenerd - Thin blades rock!!! I was quite suprised by the Mini-Talon, as it has a very thick blade for its size. The Talonite seems to compensate well on very fibrous surfaces. Who knows what it could do if it had a thinner blade.

 

[muzzleup]

Buzzbait;
I have the Mini-Talon too and agree that it really cuts cardboard,BUT wait until you have tried the talonite EDC on cardboard...this little folder out cuts them all including my Sebenza. Its as if the EDC does not want to stop cutting evern after you think it might be dulling....AWSOME KNIFE, AWSOME TALONITE

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

One factor that is often overlooked with Talonite is its lubricity. The metal is very slippery. When I receive an order I grind the edges to prevent cuts when packaging. I also do this with titanium and stainless steel.

When grinding I set the stack to be ground on top of the grinder motor. I can't do this with Talonite. The vibrations from the motor cause the pieces of Talonite to slide around and within a few seconds the stack slid onto the floor.

I think the lubricity is one of the reasons a Talonite blade cuts so well. It doesn't drag like steel in the cut.

 

[phlatinum]

Buzzbait,

Very interesting comparisons, and a good read, too! If you wrote a monthly knife nut newsletter, I'd subscribe. To think that you do all this for free ..... even cooler!

One question, though ...
How come you didn't include your Marbles Fieldcraft in the cardboard competion? (I'm curious about 52100 and the convex edge.) Did it cost too little to qualify? Was Doris in a foul mood? Care to speculate on how it might have fared?

Dan
(Edited for grammagical perfunction.)

 

[Jerry Hossom]

You might well be seeing/experiencing the combined effects of several factors. Chuck mentioned the lubricity of Talonite, and certainly that puts it in a league by itself, but similar effects are achieved with the level of finish on the blade and especially the edge. The 440V blade might well shave after more cutting, but due to the rough nature of the Vanadium carbides in the steel and the fact that the steel doesn't polish well at all, the cut may seem to drag. Friction. The DOzier in D2 probably scored higher because the steel is harder than the others, and is finer grained making the sharpening more efficient. (In other words it was just sharper with a finer edge.) The factory blades likely scored lower, because the steel is softer. That's why the Sebenza outscored the Buck in the same steel. Large batch heat treating is just not as effective as smaller batches. With stainless particularly that will also influence the finish that is attainable with edges.

I know it's Monday morning and the games scores are announced, but I think all your results were consistent with what I would have expected from each knife, given your testing criteria.

Nice bit of testing, and well worth doing.

 

[Buzzbait]

I should probably clarify a few points and make some further observations.

1. The Military has a flat grind. I would, theoretically speaking, expect a flat grind to have more trouble when cutting straight down through a large piece of cardboard. Because the entire blade comes into contact with the material being cut, and on both sides of the blade, a significant amount of drag might be created. And with the large surface area of the Military’s blade, that could be a very large amount of drag indeed. The fact that cardboard introduces a great deal of friction could further enhance the problem.

2. The Marbles Fieldcraft wasn’t included in my testing, just because of the price point. I only paid about $70.00 for the Marbles, so I didn’t bother. I’ll test out the Marbles tonight, and see how well it fairs. If the flat grind of the Military is any indication, the Marbles could run into the same exact problem. It’ll be an interesting test though, which might shed a little light on the other knives’ performances. Seeing that Doris (the Dozier K-4) was near the top of the pack, I bet she’ll have no problem letting another knife take a stab at the coveted cardboard cutting award.

3. The Buck 110 I used has a partially serrated blade. I made sure not to make use of the serrations, just because I didn’t want to throw another variable into the mix. Unfortunately, this kept me from using any of the blade’s belly. I do have a plain edge BG-42 Buck 560. This knife is just a titanium handled 110. I’ll also give the 560 a try tonight, and see if does better. It’s very possible that using the blades full belly could actually raise its performance level to better than the Sebenza. I believe that Paul Bos is doing the heat treats on these blades, and I’ve gotten staggering performance from them in the past. I’d actually go as far as to say my Buck BG-42 blades may cut better than my Sebenza blade, when factoring in all of the various stuff that I normally cut. The Sebenza blade feels harder and more durable, but I think that the Buck blade may actually be ground thinner for better cutting efficiency. The Buck blade might not hold up like a Reeve’s blade, but the cutting ability definitely might be superior. We’ll see.

4. My Sebenza does not have Chris Reeve’s originally great edge bevel. The knife has been sharpened so many times now that the bevel is a flat “V”. I may send the Seb in for reconditioning and try the test again afterwards. I know that people rave about Chris’s awesome Sebenza edge bevel, so my knife could have been at a distinct disadvantage.

5. Talonite is some very strange stuff!!! The knife won’t shave hair, and doesn’t even cut thin paper all that well. At least not nearly as well as the other knives. But man can it cut cardboard!!! The whole lubricity issue is quite intriguing. It seems that the blades lubricity was enough to counteract the possible effects of the flat grind. If my flat grind theory is correct, this raises some interesting possibilities. A Ralph/Simonich Talonite Apogee looks like it has a hollow grind. That could really sail through cardboard. Maybe flat grinds should only be reserved for the more “slippery” blade materials. Is there any data on the web showing the coefficient of frictions for various blade materials with common blade finishes? Such data could make it easier for a knifemaker to decide what steel is appropriate for a certain grind.

6. I tried resharpening the Benchmade last night, and tested again. I left a little tooth on the blade this time, so the knife could dig into the cardboard a bit more. It still performed miserably. I’m not sure what kind of cutting the Ares excels at, but it sure isn’t cardboard. I personally think that Benchmade just got too carried away with the blade’s thickness. It’s one thick chunk of steel.


So why am I doing all of this? Some of it is just for fun. Some of it is for the experience and knowledge. I’m moving up to higher price knives this year, and am deathly afraid of getting a long awaited high priced knife that just isn’t made for doing the kind of cutting that I do. I figure that if I cut enough stuff with as many of my current knives as possible, I’ll have a better idea of what knife to get for a certain application. I can’t tell you how many less expensive knives I’ve bought for certain kinds of cutting, which just didn’t cut well.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Paul Bos oversees Buck's heat treating, but doesn't actually do it in his shop. There will be a difference between blades he does himself and Buck's. I think your observations are all appropriate. On the Benchmade, you've proven that mediocre blade geometry and heat treating will defeat a decent steel everytime. Also some factories intentionally make their blades a little soft to facilitate sharpening. I think what that does is just insure you need to do it more often.

I'll bet the Marbles surprises you...

 

[Randman]

This is one of the most entertaining/interesting posts I've read at Bladeforums in my short three months here. Well written Buzzbait!

 

[aerius]

I also have the Benchmade Ares, and I have to say it sure does suck at cutting cardboard. I think it's the edge geometry and the shape of the blade, it doesn't want to "grab" the cardboard and ends up slipping, binding, and tearing thru it. I took my 735 to work at the bikeshop and had at it with the cardboard bike boxes, it worked about as well as the shop's worn out boxcutter. My M2 710 on the other hand will usually pull thru 3' of cardboard with one stroke, I'm guessing it's the recurve and the thinner edge on that knife since both of them have Benchmade's BT2 blade coating.

The 440V Military results puzzle me a bit too. I have 2 knives in that material from Kershaw (Ricochet & Boa) and they both work wonders with cardboard bike boxes. Both of them have a nice hollow grind, and the Boa has a really thin edge as well as a recurve, and it goes thru cardboard like it isn't even there. They keep their edges quite well, about the same as Benchmade's M2, but I notice that when they start to dull the Kershaws don't bind as much as the BM 710.

 

[OwenM]

I'll bet that convex ground Marble's surprises you, too.
My old Blackjack #1-7 cuts cardboard better than any of my other blades.

btw, I've got a Rinaldi Gambit with a 3.5" blade in Bos heat-treated BG-42, and am very impressed. More so than with the BG-42 in my small Sebenza (haven't used the large much).

Great thread. You're making me want to try Talonite, after all

 

[Buzzbait]

Man have you guys stirred up a hornet’s nest now!!!! I got the chance to try out the Marbles Fieldcraft and the BG-42 Buck 560. Jerry was right and I was wrong. Who woulda' thunk that this Jerry character would know more than the venerable Buzzbait? I do have an entire year of knife collecting experience under my belt now, you know.

I could just shoot out the results, but you’ll have to live through another one of my boring stories to get to the meat of my findings. That’s the price you must pay for my extraordinarily scientific knife testing.

So I get home from work, and prepare to try out my Marbles Fieldcraft. Unfortunately, the Marbles got A LOT of use last spring and summer. It was the only fixed blade I had at the time, and it basically did 99% of my camp chores. I fondly remember the unbelievable sharp edge that first came on this knife, only to have reality fall flat on my face. The Marbles had become dull; and after babying the edge on only four billion and one cutting chores. The nerve of this knife!!! Doris laughed at me for trusting a convex edge and mooned me with her stag butt.

Well, I’d never sharpened a convex edge before, and had no idea how to do so. Having ignorance to guide me, I broke out an old piece of leather and some Dremel #421 polishing compound. I wet the compound with some water and made this nasty mush all over the rough side of the leather. I then proceeded to strop the poor Marbles for about ten minutes. Keep in mind here that I’m known worldwide for my absurdly hideous stropping techniques. Stropping usually results in a malformed edge for me, making a great edge into a butter knife. The convex ground Marbles was different. Stropping actually worked!!!

I now have a Marbles with a great edge on it, and never had to take a stone or diamond to it. This is a revelation to me, as I HATE sharpening knives. It’s ultra-boring, time consuming, and wears down the knife. Yet a Marbles Fieldcraft, which has seen more action that any knife of mine, except the Sebenza, got a magnificent edge in ten minutes worth of stropping on an old chunk of leather. I didn’t need some $100.00 gizmo and a training video. I just rubbed the Marbles in a pile of rouge mud. The whole setup was lightning fast and essentially free!!! Free is for me!!! That means more money for knives, and less wasted money on accessories.

I decided to try the Buck 560 real quick and was disappointed. It seems that the BG-42 blade on my 560 is different in some way to the blade on my 110. The 110 easily outclassed the 560’s blade without even using the belly. And the 560 slices really well through paper. I just doesn’t like cardboard. Oh well.

The first cut with the Marbles was pure heaven. The edge isn’t nearly as sharp as when I got it, but pretty good for a ten-minute workout. The Fieldcraft actually did a better job than The Dozier K-4!!! Doris had a fit!!!! She started ranting and raving, tossed her kydex sheath across the room, and stomped out. I’m in the doghouse tonight I tell you.

So the Marbles comes in at #2; the tiniest whisker behind the Min-Talon. The Fieldcraft gets the #2 slot in cardboard mangling, and gets the #1 spot in price/performance. My Feildcraft cost me whole $70.00 last spring. It also gets the big chunk of metal award, having a blade spine as thick as a crocodile’s tail.

So now I’m totally confused. How could the cheapest and thickest blade do such a great job? Is it the 52100 carbon steel, or is it this crazily easy to maintain convex grind. And more to the heart of my wallet, why have I been buying all of these more expensive knives? I needed the Mini-Talon for its stainlessness. But all my other knives… Now all I need is a folding Marbles with a pocket clip!!! I could rule the world!!!

Seriously now, I am confused. If the convex grind is the reason, I’m a happy camper. I get utterly superior performance with a drop-dead brainless sharpening method. It’s hard to believe that the convex grind is the reason though, just because everybody sells knives with V grinds. It convex grinds make for such awesome performance, why aren’t all knives made this way?

aerius – Thanks for confirming that I haven’t totally lost my mind. The Ares is really bad!!! I’ve gotta’ sell mine to somebody as dumb as I was when I bought it. And I believe that the Boa cuts like crazy. I tried one out at a gun shop in December, and was very impressed. The Boa is one of those “must have” knives, as are most Kershaws, IMHO.

 

[Architect]

Thanks for the thread, Buzzbait.

I find that the little Umfaan well outperforms the Small Sebenza for cardboard cutting. Again, thin blade vs. thick.

The Talonite experience makes me want to get the Fred Perrin Poignard Talonite. At $300 though, I would have to sell my Sebbie, and I am not ready for that.

 

[phlatinum]

OK .... anybody want to trade me a Fieldcraft for this mint condition Mini-AFCK?

I sure appreciate your going to the trouble of testing the Marbles, Buzz. This stuff is really interesting and worthwhile, imo. Lately, I've been trying to decide exactly what materials, features, etc. I want in a custom hunting knife ... but findings like this make me think that it would be foolish not to own a knife like the Fieldcraft first. Talk about bang for the buck! I love the traditional looking hunter models, anyway. Might also want to think about talonite (or stellite?) in that custom.

I have a feeling this thread could go on for a while, and deservedly so.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

You ended up putting a polished convex edge on the Marbles, and that makes a huge difference. The convex grind almost forces you to do that. You could put that same edge on the other blades and they'd cut a lot better too, but it might take longer than 10 minutes and a puddle of rouge.

 

[muzzleup]

Mr. Buzzbait;

UHHH, you still have to experience the talonite EDC from Camillus. I also like my Woodcraft Marbles in 52100 too, but of all the knives I have (>100+) the talonite ones...(YA GOTTA TRY AN EDC!!!) just fly through cardboard and a whole lot of other stuff too.

 

[Jeff Clark]

The 52100 doesn't have all that chrome to get in the way of making a real fine edge. It is doesn't have a bunch of extra-hard carbides. It is very fine grained. When you strop it you not only make it sharper you also polish the side of the blade. It becomes slick and very sharp. All this is pretty normal for a nonstainless steel. The unusual thing is that it holds an edge for a long time for a rather simple steel.

The reason I suggested sharpening your military with a diamond hone is that it is one of the most reliable ways to give a really high-alloy steel edge some tooth. Using things like strops and ceramic rods can have a smoothing effect on the edge since they don't cut the carbides well.

 

[Buzzbait]

So what custom makers do convex edges? Are there any custom folder guys who do convex edges? As you can tell, I'm really psyched about this. The thought of not having to sharpen is toooooo coooool. Call me a stropping fool!!!

I'm planning on picking up probably two customs this year. One large folder and one fixed blade the size of a Fieldcraft. Both drop or clip points. If I could get convex edges on both, I'd be da' man!!!!

And..... The inevitable question..... What's the downside to convex edges? I've been cutting wood, paper, cardboard and leather all night. This knife won't stop cutting!!!