Combat knives?

[marco]

I would really like to hear Snickersee's points on why Maddog's knives are nothing special? Maybe start another thread? This is something that I would really like to see discussed in a rational manner, because I'm sure we would get plenty of conflicting viewpoints, all of which would be valuable.

marco

 

[Snickersnee]

I have kept my Project 1 as I got it. No wrapping, no gloves. I don't need them. My hands aren't calloused at all, and I have no problem with the checkering whatsoever. The handle is round, but does not roll in the hand.

The ergonomics are great! This thing feels real nice in the hand. Switches to different grip positions with ease too. If you like to put your thumb on the pommel in the reverse grip you might find it is a little long. I have small hands, so it's a little awkward. But I've always prefered a classic "ice pick" grip to thumbing the pommel. Retention is unbelievable. Even covered with pig gore it provides a very solid grip. Once you learn to feel for the difference between the two sides of the crossgaurd, indexing is a breeze. If it is carried in kydex, there's only one way you can draw it anyway.

I REALLY love the way the handle blends into the gaurd. Because I use knives to kill big animals on occasion, it's nice to have something you can thrust hard with that won't pinch my hand. Those hard angles that most crossgaurds meet the handle at, especialy on knives like the Busse's where the gaurd is formed from the blade stock, can actualy draw blood. But on the Project's, it's radioused and curves gently into the handle, plus the bottom of the gaurd itself is rounded. Super smooth. This is honestly the most comfortable knife I've worked with. I had opportunity to use a Mad Dog to do some chopping. Not bad, but it wasn't any better, and I still liked my Project better.

This is one of the few knives that I am almost completely satisfied with. I wouldn't mind a slightly longer blade, or a steel endcap. The only real flaw of the knife is that during heavy chopping the endcap will start to unscrew, as will any screw when subjected to such vibrations. There are a few ways to deal with this;

A: use the lanyard. even if the cap comes off, it'll still be swinging from your wrist

B: check it every so often. I have chopped for 15-20 minutes straight and the cap loosened but didn't come off. I'm not He-Man, when I'm cutting down something thick like a tree, I have to take short breaks, even if I'm using an axe. I just check it while I stretch out my arm. It's not a big problem, but something you should keep an eye on.

C:Really tighten the cap down hard. It'll take a lot of banging to loosen it.

D: permanently affix it. The hollow handle was not the primary selling point for me. I do use it for matches and stuff, but I could live without it. I'm considering getting a steel endcap made up and tig welded on.

E: remove the endcap. You still have a good 4" to hold on to. Between the checkering and the actual shape of the handle, retention is great. Unless you have big hands, you won't even miss it.

Like I said, this isn't a big problem. I've never had the endcap fall off. It's just something to keep in mind. Like the bright and shiny chrome blades of the Mad Dogs.

Yeah, I guess that a sharp tanto could be used. It is a knife after all. I just fail to see any advantage over any other point style. It is at best equal, at worst inferior. If you like the asthetics, go ahead and get one. Having somethings that you think looks good is important too. One of the criteria I keep in mind when selecting a knife, not the primary, but it is something I watch for. It's about pride of ownership. I've got no problem with that.

What does get me is people trying to assert that they are a superior form of point that offers many advantages in terms of penetration and strength as well as utility over all other points. That is simply and demonstrably not the case. I'm always looking out for upgrading any of my gear to something better. When something new comes along that looks promising, I check it out. I have tested tantos. They are nothing special.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Snickersnee, that's the first time I think I have read someone comment that a Project was one of the most comfortable knives that they have owned. Interesting viewpoint. I just checked out some pictures of the Project and I can see where you are coming from on the handle -> guard transition. Reeve does put a lot of work into his work and it shows in the details. You can see the same thing on a Sebenza as everything is rounded for comfort.

As for your comment of a MD being no better than a Project for chopping, which MD were you using and how exactly were you chopping? I would have bet that say an ATAK would out chop a Project due to its flat grind and the more comfortable handle allowing more forceful chops.

-Cliff

 

[Jeff Clark]

Of course we're drifting off the "Combat Knife" topic, but Snick's comment about fights not happening these days gave me an itch. Duel's would be likeliest to happen in a gang, they sometimes have odd initiation rights. The fight that comes looking for you is certainly not intended to be a fair fight. Most commonly it starts as a robbery or assault. There are still drunks, drug addicts, large thugs, and outright crazy people who will try a direct one-on-one assault on people to get something they consider valuable. One category like this a sexual predator (rapist). A knife for defense could do a lot to prevent the completion of the assault and/or give a big escape advantage. A bigger knife is a better deterent and better in action, but an unexpected swiss army knife may do the trick. One of the most common sources of violence in America is drunks around bars. The best defence for this is to stay away from bars.

Another scenario is the roaming band of drunks looking for trouble. It still happens and you cannot tell the level of your danger when the encounter starts. You really want to get the hell out of there fast in this situation. I remember reading the newspaper and seeing my name associated with a murder. Another Jeffrey K. Clark of about my age had his car rear-ended by a gang of drunks. They got out of their car and beat him to death. The crime happened in a decent neighborhood near where I lived. In this situation a knife might have given the guy a running start (though a gun would be better). If it had been me at the time I would have had at least 3.5" of razor sharp steel on my side.

Another potential fight is a mugging that misses its target. Someone trys to disable you with a club and you spot them or they don't make a good hit. You might want a knife at this point.

The military establishment would discourage it, but you might want a knife with you when off duty in some parts of the world. The biggest that you can get away with would be best. You might run accross an assailant with some rather odd looking local blade. I would always try and bring spare steel with me if I was far from my comfort zone.


------------------
"Defense against knife attack:
Option 1. If you have a gun shoot him."

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Cliff --

I'm with you there. I find the Projects to be among the most uncomfortable handles going. Round gnurled steel just doesn't do it for me. Between the more ergonomic handle, flat grind, and positive included angle on the ATAK, it's hard to believe a similar-sized Project could really compete with it head-to-head. Snick, when you say the Mad Dog wasn't much better, did you compare the two side-by-side, or are you relying on impressions of one, then the other?

Joe

 

[Snickersnee]

I was comparing the relative comfort of an Attak's handle while chopping a board that was not quite a 2x4 to that of the Project. I did not find the Attak to be any more comfortable than the Project. I may be the only person in the world who thinks a Project 1 has a comfortable handle, but it really just doesn't bug me at all. In fact, I think it's great. Has anybody who doesn't like it lived with one for a while? I'm not knocking any of you, I'm just asking if you had extended contact with it, or are going by pictures or first impressions. It felt odd, but not uncomfortable, when I first got it. Since then, it's really grown on me. I experience no discomfort whatsoever when using it. My hand doesn't even get reddened or rubbed raw. Like I said, I don't have any callouses. Maybe I'm just naturaly thick-skinned.

As to ability to chop, I could notice no practical difference. Nemo did a head-to-head comparison. I e-mailed him and he said the Project was a much better wood chopper. I don't know about all of that, but I do know the Project can chop with great effect.

I am not particularly taken by the Attak's handle design. It is one answer out of many. It's not my answer. I honestly believe in my heart of hearts that much of the love for Mad Dogs is a result of their maker's boisterous comments as to their suitability. I'm not going to say they are bad knives, but I honestly don't believe they live up to the hype.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying fights don't happen ever, I'm saying that they are not really all that common. In the sense that you can pretty much go about your buisness with minimal harassment. Up to recently, I lived in Paramore(neighborhood in Orlando that had a reputation as being "bad", most of the residents were black). I stuck out like a sore thumb there. I got into a scrap or two because I'm cocky, but it wasn't really that bad. Sure, a few a$$holes yell vulgarities or what not, a little "shove me-shove you", but nothing serious.

You can get in bad situations. But the streets are no more lethal than they've ever been. I think in order to justify the inflated prices of most "street-lethal self-defense from behind the walls of Sam Quentin" programs the reality of the situation is a little inflated. I'm not kidding. If somebody wants to accompany me with a video camera, we'll take a stroll through your choice of rough neighborhoods and see how many fights we get into. We'll be asked if we want some drugs or prostitutes, we'll get some scowls, some nasty language, we'll be asked what we're doing, but fights are quite unlikely.

Oh, and I think drunks are not quite such a problem. I'm just ribbing ya, I know what you're saying. Still, the bulk of people who will do nasty things to you will be sober. Drugs/alcohol impair judgement yes, but also ability to fight. There are still angry stoners, but they're not the main threat.

[This message has been edited by Snickersnee (edited 22 June 1999).]

 

[Chiro75]

For that endcap, I would just put some blue Loctite on it. Especially if you don't open the handle, it cuts down on most loosening due to vibration. You could also put a large lock (split) washer on it, if you could find one that big. Problem with Loctite is that it must be reapplied when the parts are unthreaded. Now that the "American Tanto" has been trashed thoroughly, I must add my own comments, escpecially seeing how far we've digressed from the original topic anyway (got more response than I thought). I have one knife that would qualify as a true knife of the American tanto type. It is a Rob Simonich Cetan Tanto. I like it a lot. Cuts very well in a variety of situations, especially at the "corner" between the main edge and the tip edge. My tests show it to be a poor penetrator, though. Surprisingly enough, the best knife I own for penetrating depth is a Buck XLTi with clip point blade! Btter than my fixed blades, too, which I really pound but to no avail!
Anyway, in a pinch I can also use the small edge on the Cetan tanto as a screwdriver on a screw on my glasses that always seems to be loosening. It's saved me several times in that capacity!
That said, why rag on the American tanto so badly, then praise the traditional tanto so much? Seems to me the main difference is a sharp transition between the two edges vs. a gradual one, but I haven't seen too many small Japanese style blades with a whole heck of a lot of belly. Maybe I've been looking in the wrong place!

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http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/knifehome.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels

 

[Snickersnee]

Actualy, a katana is mostly belly, due to the curve of the blade.

I don't really see the traditional tanto as being so great, just better than the modern. The traditional tanto is a point found on utility knives from accross the world. Nothing fancy to it, just a simple point that alows a knife to get some good belly on the point.

It should come as no suprise you'd get better penetration with a clip point. It's pointy-er. You can make it thick or thin, so it doesn't even necessarily mean a weak point due to lack of matierial. Drop points, spear points and such are better piercer's than tanto's too. The katana was not a thrusting weapon. It wasn't designed with the thrust in mind as the primary method of attack, and was not designed to optimize thrusting ability. Compare it's single-edged, curved and blunt slashing profile to the double-edged, straight and pointy profile of Medieval European cut-and-thrust swords. Big difference in silohouette, big difference in performance parameters. Different aproaches call for different designs.

 

[Chiro75]

Well, what surprised me about my Buck's clip point is that there is a lot of curve in the tip, and it seems to stick more upwards than forwards. Penetrates deep, though! Really doesn't look like it due to the angle of the tip itself, but I can't argue with results!
I designed a blade that is a cross between a Japanese tanto and a drop point knife that Madpoet made for me. He made two versions as one came out with a warp, and I like them both. The overall shape is reminiscent of the tanto, but the point instead of being in line with the spine comes down a centimeter or two. Really nice, I think. The seconf one has a thinner point and a bit of recurve in the belly, too! If I could only get them as sharp as Mel doesn, then I'd be in bidness! ;-)

------------------
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/knifehome.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Snickersnee, is the Project blade heavy? That is the only advantage I can see it having over the ATAK which is balanced neutral. I am assuming they are about the same weight, if the Project is far heavier then it would have an advantage in that respect as well.

As for the handles, no I have not used one. In fact I have not even held a Project. I have however worked with similar handes before and I did not like them much at all. Either the handle was smooth enough that it didn't bother my hand which made it impossible to hold onto during chopping, or it was that rough that I could hold onto it fine which made it tear my hands apart quite nicely.

It could be that Reeve has designed a handle that goes in between these two extremes and is secure enough not to slip, but not rough enough to tear. I do like his attitude and the reports on them have been strongly positive so I will probably pick up one in the future from somone like Sid Post who has a decent return policy so if I do find the handle a problem I can just send it back.

-Cliff

 

[Corduroy]

"That said, why rag on the American tanto so badly, then praise the traditional tanto so much?"

I didn't praise the traditional tanto so much. I don't like either. I just think the traditional style is a bit better because it at least has some belly to it. A good belly is a long, constant curve towards the point, though, and not the short, abrupt curve of the traditional tanto shape. It's the "secondary point" of the American tanto (sorry, Snickersnee) that bugs me the most. I feel a knife is better with one point and a good belly rather than two points and no belly.

Question, since this thread was originally about combat knives: can anyone name a military service (including the Japanese) that has issued its members a tanto-pointed knife in this century? Seems to me there should be a few if it's as great as some folks claim.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)

 

[Ossi]

Jeff Clark mentioned the need for off duty self defence blade in foreign countries. I remember reading Capt. Fairbairns comments of that same need when he served in Shanghai. He suggested a double-edged dagger with 6 to 8 inch blade for that purpose.

That kind of knife probably gives a serious signal for attackers already when seeing it.
Hopefully not a signal like "I must get that beatiful knife!" (joke)

Ossi

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Cliff & Snick:

Ergonomics is such a subjective area that I'm not surprised by anything anymore. Well, I thought I was not surprised, but I remain shocked anyone would even put the Project's ergonomics in the same class as the ATAK's. I have not used the Project hard, but was given the opportunity to do some playing with one. It's uncomfortable to me from the moment I picked it up, and just got worse as I did light cutting. No, I haven't done hard cutting with it, but it's unlikely that a knife that's uncomfortable on light cutting would suddenly become more comfortable for hard cutting. Although there are a lot of Project fans on the forums, I've also read enough ergonomics complaints -- and witnessed dealer tables where plenty of people picked 'em up and complained about the ergonomics -- that I think generally the Project is a classs behind the Mad Dogs in this area. On the other hand, the Projects are well done in all other areas. I personally don't like how heavy they seem for the size, but many people don't seem to mind.

The Mad Dogs on the other hand I have used hard, and the handles are exceptionally well done. Snick, you greatly underestimate the amount of hard testing by very knowledgeable people that has been done on Mad Dogs, and the ergonomics usually come through with flying colors. Yours may be the worst comment I've seen on Mad Dog's ergonomics, and "no better than the Project" doesn't seem to be *that* bad a critique

From what I've witnessed, people who pick up Mad Dogs and then put them back down don't tend to complain about ergonomics -- more likely, they'll complain about the price, or the lack of aesthetics.

Hands may vary and so do perceptions of ergonomics. You line up 10 random people and have 'em handle both knives, I know where I'll put my money as to which gets the better rating for ergonomics!

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com

 

[Cliff Stamp]

In regards to weight, I just checked and the Project is 1.5 oz heavier. So its not weight that is giving it any kind of performance advantage but it could be the balance.

In regards to the handle ergonomics of the Reeve fixed blades, your opinion Snickersnee has to be one of the most extreme I have exer read. Can you for example stab your Project into a 2x4 and twist it to break it out with no discomfort because of the checkering?

If the answer to that is yes, is it possible that you have grown used to it? Or have you never had any problems with it in this regard under heavy use? By the way you can't do anything like put cigarette butts out on your palms or anything can you?

As that would explain it.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 23 June 1999).]

 

[GF]

Chiro75, replying to your original question about combat knives, I believe that combat knives definitely have their place. With MOUT (Military Operations in Urban Terrain) becoming more and more common these days, close combat is still a reality. M-16s have an annoying habit of jamming when you don't want them to. IMO, 99.9% of the time a combat knive is used as a utility knife. Personally, I have never reached that last 1/10 of a percent where I would use my knife otherwise. It is always good to be prepared though. The most popular fixed bladed knives that I recall were Kabars (generic term) or variants thereof. I never recall anyone wearing big bowies or anything along those lines (mainly because you had to get permission to wear anything other than standard issue). The knife I wore was the Kabar Fighting/Utility. We trained for knife fighting and we didn't discount the possibility of having to use our knives against people. In short, there is always the possibility of having to use your knife as a fighter (especially in MOUT conditions).

Semper Fidelis,

Glenn

USMC

 

[RUDY]

To answer your question about the balance to the Project 1 Mr. Stamp I just went and got mine and the balance point seems to be just right in forward of the guard. I would say the blade is pretty neutrally balanced. I balanced the blade on my finger at the guard to determine this. I know Mr. Hood has said something to the effect that the sabre grind puts more metal (i.e. weight and force I would assume) behind the edge and so helps it to penetrate better so maybe that is your answer. I would also rate the edge on my Reeve pretty shallow so maybe that helps it penetrate better as well.

As far as ergonimics go on the blade, I find the handle pretty comfortable. I like the grip on my Busse better but really it is just personal preference. I mean I don't find the handle on the P1 uncomfortable just the Busse seems to fit my hand better. I think it's that the Busse's handle is wider.

The checkering on the P1 is very secure but I wouldn't rate it overly abrasive either. I think it would hurt if I used the blade hard for a period of time but I must confess my hands are very tender (thats what I get for avoiding heavy manual labor for 16 years). Any one with decently calloused hands though shouldn't be affected by the P1's checkering though. I know my dad's hands are very calloused and he just loves the blade. I have never heard him complain about the grip and he has held it quite a bit. I really think I could slam the blade into a piece of wood and twist it out without and real pain or damage to my hand.

As for comparing MDs to them I can't say because I don't own a MD. What I can say is that what appeals to me about there handles is there strenght and corrosive/conductive properties not there ergomonics really (I am getting more and more curious about them though the more I read). To me my Busse handle is all I could want in a handle.

Now at this point I must admit two things. I haven't used my Reeve. These are just observations I have made while handling it quite a bit over the last three months. You see I buy knives because I like them and because I like what I here about them even if I will never use the blade or even if it won't go up in value significantly. I know this is a bit stupid but oh well. The other is that when holding the Reeve sometimes (not all the time) it feels like I can't quite get the edge presented straight forward because of the handle shape. However, as I haven't use it I can't say if this is just a feeling or not.

Lastly, I must say I would never give up my Reeve and I don't think anyone would ever need a stronger knive.

Hope this helps
thanks and take care
collin

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Collin :

I would also rate the edge on my Reeve pretty shallow so maybe that helps it penetrate better as well.

I forgot about that. I kept thinking that the Project is a sabre grind, but now I recall hearing it described as being hollow. If it is hollow then the edge could obviously be thinner than an ATAK and would obviously lead to better penetration. All this discussion has renewed my interest in one.


-Cliff

 

[Snickersnee]

It may just be that some people are more comfortable with one thing, others with something else, but honestly the ergo's on the Attack weren't really anything special to me. The only thing I really saw as an advantage over some other handles is that way the handle/what-passes-for-a-gaurd meet. It's kinda rounded. Yeah, I'll agree they don't have much in the asthetics department. They look like kitchen knives to me.

Nah, I don't put ciggarettes out on my hands. I smoke cigars.

Just kidding. But I was a weldor, and consequently my hands are heat-resistant, and I've been burned a number of times so they aren't particularly sensitive. I don't mind using my hands, so I don't get upset even if something is kinda rough to the touch. I still think the Project is quite pleasant. Maybe it depends on how you hold the knife. I've also used it long enough that I know exactly how to properly align the blade, but then again that's never been a problem for me either.

Still, I hear a lot of people complaining about abrasions. Like I said, I have no callouses. I don't get abraded. Not by chopping, slicing, or even twist. Maybe you guys are just a bunch of girly-men.

As was said, the Project 1 balances right at the gaurd. Nemo said he thought it chopped better because the cutting edge is thin, and then wides quite a bit as you go up. Chips/wedges the wood out. This is why the Project splits wood better too. A good way to think about it's cross-section is as a razor welded onto a 1/4"thick piece of bar stock. This also makes it a good penetrator. It's like a spike with a cutting edge attached.

I am not a "Project fan" in the typical sense. That sort of thing is alien to my existence. I like my Project 1 because it does everything I wanted it too. It's a good knife that was exactly what I was looking for. But I have no attachment to it because of looks, collector's value, maker, or anything other than the fact that it admirably fills my need. If I found a knife that I think would suit me better, I'd trade up in a heartbeat. So far, I have yet to see such a knife. I can think of a few refinements, but I honestly can't say I could come up with anything that would be much better for this type of knife. Maybe some stuff that's as good, but nothing better.

Oh, Corduroy, do those WWII ceremonial katanas count?

 

[Corduroy]

Mr. Stamp,

I feel there is some confusion, either on my part or on yours. I always understood "hollow" as describing the shape of a grind and "saber" as describing the depth.

A blade may be either hollow-ground (concave, done against a wheel), flat-ground (done against a platen), or convex-ground (aka Moran-ground, done with a slack belt). It may also be either fully ground (all the way to the spine) or saber-ground (halfway to the spine). I do not know of a special term for knives ground, say, 3/4 of the way to the spine, but I call these saber-ground as well. So asking if a knife is "hollow ground or saber-ground" would be like asking if it were "a clip-point or blue." Examples:

Saber hollow-ground - Starmate
Saber flat-ground - AFCK
Fully hollow ground - Loveless drop-point
Fully flat-ground - Military

Am I getting this wrong?

------------------

-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)

[This message has been edited by Corduroy (edited 23 June 1999).]

 

[Jeff Clark]

The term "saber ground" confused me because modern sabers are derived from Hungarian Cavalry Sabres which had a distinctive grind. They were mostly ground one-side like a chisel. I think one reason was to give them a preference to cut away from the rider on a down-stroke.

So I think of Saber Grind as a confusing misnomer.

------------------
"Defense against knife attack:
Option 1. If you have a gun shoot him."