Complete history of Bowie knife

[craytab]

Kitchen knives lack glamour. Hard to turn a steak or chefs knife into legends.

Doesn't make it not true bubba. I would argue that the more famous knife is the one that every household in the world has multiple of.

Early Bowieknives from Schively or Searles, look pretty much like a Chef's kitchen knife!

Yes indeed. People want to romanticize this topic but they were essentially kitchen knives. What we have now are very different.

Bowie did.

:thumbup:

 

[marcinek]

There really is no historical source that any historian would accept at face value without questioning motives and intent.

That goes for anything. By your argument we don't know that George Washington existed.

 

[BubbaGump]

Go tell Jim Bowie

Old butchers knives can become legends. But its still a butchers knife.

 

[BubbaGump]

That goes for anything. By your argument we don't know that George Washington existed.

We have multiple attestations from many thousands of independent third-party sources with no vested interest in the subject. All the sources agree on details. Not so when it comes to the specifics of the origins of Bowie knife designs. It's all over the place and the source is a small handful of individuals with a vested interest in self promotion.

 

[marcinek]

Go tell Jim Bowie

Doubtful candidate for one of Bowie's knives, though widely made and carried after the Sandbar duel. (Unless you buy into the whole James Black nonsense.)

http://www.antiquebowies.com/antiqueBowies/historic/tahchee/tahchee.htm

I suppose people like the "coffin handle" term....makes things cooler.

 

[craytab]

Old butchers knives can become legends. But its still a butchers knife.

Legends are just that.

 

[kn4wd]

the first bowie would be the famous sandbar knife which would be three years prior to james black (1830)making the first bowie knife. jims brother resin used a blacksmith named Daniel searles. the sandbar fight(1827) probably was described as the largest butcher knife the witnesses described. I made a copy of the searles in scale and working on one a bit larger. to me that would have been the first bowie as to being used by jim. I read a letter written to the editor of a Louisiana paper from jim's mother about the fight and description of the knife. I have only done to of the searles style bowies and they are both here and will stay here. they are beautiful blades, indeed. you will get arguments either way as to what he carried at the Alamo no one claims to know, here is a copy and paste from an article on the net.

In 1827, Samuel Levi Wells and Dr. Thomas Maddox participated in a duel on a large
sandbar above Natchez, on the Mississippi state side of the river. Upon firing, neither
man hit the other and they proceeded to shake hands and start to leave the site. But
some people in Maddox's group suddenly fired at the Wells' group, which included
James Bowie. Bowie was shot through the lung. Long-time enemy, Norris Wright, then
began stabbing him with swordcanes repeatedly. With a summoning of all of the
strength he had left, Bowie grabbed Wright and sank the large knife he was carrying
into Wright's heart, instantly killing him. Witnesses described the "large butcher knife"
to other people, newspapers printed stories of the event, and a legend was born.

Already riding a crest of popularity from the Natchez incident, in 1830, the knife gained
even more prominence, after another famous fight by its owner. Jim Bowie was
attacked by three men who had been hired to kill him. Bowie came out the victor and
the end of the fight found one of the attackers almost beheaded, another
disemboweled and the third with his skull split open.

 

[BubbaGump]

I think instead of debating history, its easier to just come to a conclusion on what the Bowie knife design has evolved to be today. I think everyone can probably agree on that.

 

[BubbaGump]

Already riding a crest of popularity from the Natchez incident, in 1830, the knife gained
even more prominence, after another famous fight by its owner. Jim Bowie was
attacked by three men who had been hired to kill him. Bowie came out the victor and
the end of the fight found one of the attackers almost beheaded, another
disemboweled and the third with his skull split open.

More folklore and legend accounts.

The Bowie is seen by us in America like the Japanese see the Katana--something that imbues on the wielder a legendary power, the ability to levitate, ability to cut down multiple assailants without breaking a sweat. The powers are of supernatural origin and allow anyone to fight off hoardes. It can deflect machine gun bullets as well.

The truth is, both are just slabs of steel with an edge. Shrouded in legend and folklore, yes. But still just a piece of steel. Most people would probably end up cutting themselves to shreds with their own blade if they actually swung it around in a fight.

 

[stabman]

Most people would probably end up cutting themselves to shreds with their own blade if they actually swung it around in a fight.

Heh, and you accuse others of perpetuating myths...

 

[Greykilt]

Blade Forums own Dwight McLemore can give you a lot of insight into this subject as well.
The problem with Bowie knife authenticity is that during the time of the buoys there was no bowie knife. There were men named Bowie and those men carried knives and one boy in particular carried a particularly large knife. But whether he himself considered it a bowie knife or ever try to market it as such or even had other bowie knives distributed on his own behalf is very doubtful.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Here's a place for you to start.

http://www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dewitt/adp/history/bios/bowie/knife_like_bowies.html

No primary sources are cited - Bowie or the other nine people present at, and survivors of, the sandbar fight, which does not include Rezin Bowie.

The nearest to primary sources are one 1838 letter by Rezin Bowie, written after Jim was dead, and a single 1838 newspaper article. That's not nothing, but, given that it's hearsay, it seem some distance away from the level of documentation one would see for a dissertation on an historical question.

If a "Bowie Knife" is the knife used by Jim Bowie, more is required.

 

[Greykilt]

Kitchen knives lack glamour. Hard to turn a steak or chefs knife into legends.

No, it is actualy quite easy. If you want it to be real then real it becomes to you. Whereas one may have difficulty tracing back through time for James Bowies Alamo blade, tracing the history of knives produced and sold as "Bowie" knives is quite easy. In the late 1800's almost any sheath knife was labeled a Bowie because it sold.

 

[stabman]

Here's another site that talks about the Bowie knife:

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/lnb01

 

[Cobalt]

It was a modified butcher knife. And there is no butcher knife made today that is like it. It was near 1/4" thick and 9-10 inch blade. There are plenty of representations of it and there was no clip. Sounds like a competition cutter of today, lol. Certainly nothing like the Randal smithsonnian bowie.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

There is a lot of ambiguity surrounding the subject. For starters, the term 'Bowie' really refers to a number of blade designs rather than a single historical knife. Speaking of the actual history, it has been been shaped to a great extent by legend and myth rather than reliable historical sources so its hard to separate fact from legend. There really isn't any record-keeping on the subject. There are just general references that hint at the development of a specific type of blade. The design is attributed to the histrorical figure Jim Bowie, but he never designed a knife. Nor did he carry a single knife with him. He carried a number of different blade designs to be used specifically as fighting knives but there is not one single example that you can say represents the historical Bowie knife, because there really isn't one. There are many different blade designs scattered all over the place. There is also debate as to whether he ever actually engaged in any knife fight in his career or had to use his knife for anything other than what most people use them for--as a tool. It is hard to separate myth from fact.

Historical Bowie knives are really the subject of American folklore. It is probable that such knife styles weren't any more legendary or revolutionary than any other knife of the day. They just captured the imagination of the public because of the events at the Alamo. The notion of Jim Bowie going down fighting to the last with knife in hand.

This is true... Jim never designed a knife. The knife Jim used in the sandbar fight was simply "Jim Bowie's knife".

At that point in history, "The Bowie Knife" did not exist. "Jim Bowie's knife" did exist. The knife in question (Jim Bowie's knife) was designed by his brother, Rezin Bowie. So essentially, "Jim Bowie's knife" was an 1820s "custom knife" made to the designer's specifications by the designer.

Now the question is "Who made Jim Bowie's knife?" Two real possibilities exist - Either Rezin, himself, or the Bowie Plantation blacksmith of 1826/27 - Jesse Clift.

As published in Rezin's own letter to The Planter's Advocate dated August 24, 1838.

"The first Bowie knife was made by myself in the parish of Avoyelles, in this state (Louisiana), as a hunting knife, for which purpose, exclusively, it was used for many years."

However, according to Rezin's granddaughter, she said that her mother told her she (Rezin's daughter) had watch their blacksmith, Mr. Clift, make the knife under Rezin's supervision from an old file.


And what were Rezin's specifications?

In the same 1838 letter, Rezin described the knife specifications as being...

"The length of the blade was nine and one-quarters inches, its width one and one-half inches, single edged and not curved..." like a large butcher knife. Later it was said that the knife has a SMALL guard, as (depending on the story) either Jim or Rezin had cut themselves cleaning a rabbit when "his" bloody hand slipped.

Rezin was quoted as saying that the knife he made did not look like the "Bowie knives" of the time, but that he thought that Jim would have liked what they had evolved into.

So the bottom line is that "Jim Bowie's knife" was a hunting knife, similar in size to a large butcher knife, not a "fighting" knife.

Anything made after 1827 are "knife makers' fantasy knives" made to fit their own visions of what kind of knife they would have used in such a fight as "The Sandbar Fight" or rather, what they (the knife makers) thought the American public of the 1830s and later wanted in such a knife.

Kind a like what knife makers do now-a-days. Take an idea and try to make money out of it.

 

[Final Option]

One fact that no one can dispute is that Bowie did in fact engage in a knife fight albeit it started off as a gun fight. What ever knife he carried it was his,therefore it was a Bowie Knife. Yes modifications occurred along the way to what extent no one knows for certain and folklore may now have us accept maybe something different than what was initially conceived.

But for me In my minds eye I can still picture Jim Bowie cutting down Santa Anna's troops as they stormed the Alamo with him wielding this magnificent large knife that looks like my Randall Smithsonian Bowie.

 

[Cobalt]

This is true... Jim never designed a knife. The knife Jim used in the sandbar fight was simply "Jim Bowie's knife".

At that point in history, "The Bowie Knife" did not exist. "Jim Bowie's knife" did exist. The knife in question (Jim Bowie's knife) was designed by his brother, Rezin Bowie. So essentially, "Jim Bowie's knife" was an 1820s "custom knife" made to the designer's specifications by the designer.

Now the question is "Who made Jim Bowie's knife?" Two real possibilities exist - Either Rezin, himself, or the Bowie Plantation blacksmith of 1826/27 - Jesse Clift.

As published in Rezin's own letter to The Planter's Advocate dated August 24, 1838.

"The first Bowie knife was made by myself in the parish of Avoyelles, in this state (Louisiana), as a hunting knife, for which purpose, exclusively, it was used for many years."

However, according to Rezin's granddaughter, she said that her mother told her she (Rezin's daughter) had watch their blacksmith, Mr. Clift, make the knife under Rezin's supervision from an old file.


And what were Rezin's specifications?

In the same 1838 letter, Rezin described the knife specifications as being...

"The length of the blade was nine and one-quarters inches, its width one and one-half inches, single edged and not curved..." like a large butcher knife. Later it was said that the knife has a SMALL guard, as (depending on the story) either Jim or Rezin had cut themselves cleaning a rabbit when "his" bloody hand slipped.

Rezin was quoted as saying that the knife he made did not look like the "Bowie knives" of the time, but that he thought that Jim would have liked what they had evolved into.

So the bottom line is that "Jim Bowie's knife" was a hunting knife, similar in size to a large butcher knife, not a "fighting" knife.

Anything made after 1827 are "knife makers' fantasy knives" made to fit their own visions of what kind of knife they would have used in such a fight as "The Sandbar Fight" or rather, what they (the knife makers) thought the American public of the 1830s and later wanted in such a knife.

Kind a like what knife makers do now-a-days. Take an idea and try to make money out of it.

spot on. This is a close representation of what Bowie had in the Sand bar fight

 

[zzyzzogeton]

One fact that no one can dispute is that Bowie did in fact engage in a knife fight albeit it started off as a gun fight. What ever knife he carried it was his,therefore it was a Bowie Knife. Yes modifications occurred along the way to what extent no one knows for certain and folklore may now have us accept maybe something different than what was initially conceived.

But for me In my minds eye I can still picture Jim Bowie cutting down Santa Anna's troops as they stormed the Alamo with him wielding this magnificent large knife that looks like my Randall Smithsonian Bowie.

Except that in reality, Jim most likely died in his sick bed, where he had been for several days after turning over command of his volunteers to Col Travis, Commander of the "Regular" troops, although to call any of the Texians "regular" would be stretching the definition to the breaking point.

 

[marcinek]

Now the question is "Who made Jim Bowie's knife?" Two real possibilities exist - Either Rezin, himself, or the Bowie Plantation blacksmith of 1826/27 - Jesse Clift.

As published in Rezin's own letter to The Planter's Advocate dated August 24, 1838.

"The first Bowie knife was made by myself in the parish of Avoyelles, in this state (Louisiana), as a hunting knife, for which purpose, exclusively, it was used for many years."

However, according to Rezin's granddaughter, she said that her mother told her she (Rezin's daughter) had watch their blacksmith, Mr. Clift, make the knife under Rezin's supervision from an old file.

Give that man a cigar. :thumbup:

The knife Jim used on the sandbar was the Forrest Knife. Designed or commissioned by Rezin and made by Cliff.

Drops mic.