CPM-S110V and Maxamet Damascus?

C

Chimaera

Joined
Jul 1, 2020
Messages
8
Hey-

First things first, I am not a metallurgist. I have never made damascus of any kind, let alone something insane like this. Second- Why I am asking this completely ridiculous question. I have (like most of us) been stuck at home, very bored. I used some of this time to concoct my dream knife.

This fantasy would be a completely custom Zero Tolerance 0451 (a hybrid between the dainty 0450 and the massive 0452, coming in at a ~3.75" blade, my perfect size) with textured white plasma timascus scales, ceramic bearings, a Benchmade Axis lock, and this ridiculous blade:A 3.75" spirograph damascus blade made of Crucible's CPM-S110V for the silver, and Carpenter Tech's Maxamet for the black.

This knife will not be made in the foreseeable future, if ever. It just seemed like the kind of hypothetical situation that some of the people on this forum would enjoy. I was curious if anyone had ever tried this damascus or had a guess on how it would turn out. Are these steels even remotely forgeable? Would they bond? Would the damascus delaminate? Have I just come up with the greatest thing since sliced and toasted and buttered bread? If you think it would fail, do you have a good damascus combination (looking for good edge retention though not insanely brittle). Also, where do you find these exotic supersteels? I'm not looking to buy any, just wondering.

Thanks,
Chimaera
 
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Chimaera said:
Hey-

First things first, I am not a metallurgist. I have never made damascus of any kind, let alone something insane like this. Second- Why I am asking this completely ridiculous question. I have (like most of us) been stuck at home, very bored. I used some of this time to concoct my dream knife.

This fantasy would be a completely custom Zero Tolerance 0451 (a hybrid between the dainty 0450 and the massive 0452, coming in at a ~3.75" blade, my perfect size) with textured white plasma timascus scales, ceramic bearings, a Benchmade Axis lock, and this ridiculous blade:A 3.75" spirograph damascus blade made of Crucible's CPM-S110V for the silver, and Carpenter Tech's Maxamet for the black.

This knife will not be made in the foreseeable future, if ever. It just seemed like the kind of hypothetical situation that some of the people on this forum would enjoy. I was curious if anyone had ever tried this damascus or had a guess on how it would turn out. Are these steels even remotely forgeable? Would they bond? Would the damascus delaminate? Have I just come up with the greatest thing since sliced and toasted and buttered bread? If you think it would fail, do you have a good damascus combination (looking for good edge retention though not insanely brittle). Also, where do you find these exotic supersteels? I'm not looking to buy any, just wondering.

Thanks,
Chimaera
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DevinT is the most experienced person I know with stainless or high alloy pattern welding. What you are proposing is incredibly difficult. I have very little damascus experience, and have tried some z-wear combos (San mai) and all except one failed. Everything has to be perfect.
 
Willie71 said:
DevinT is the most experienced person I know with stainless or high alloy pattern welding. What you are proposing is incredibly difficult. I have very little damascus experience, and have tried some z-wear combos (San mai) and all except one failed. Everything has to be perfect.
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That's one reason it's hypothetical. ;) (Along with the astronomical cost)
 
It is easy to imagine almost any fanciful combination for a knife ... much harder to actually do it.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
It is easy to imagine almost any fanciful combination for a knife ... much harder to actually do it.
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Now that I have done a few billets, even 52100 moves much slower than the 10xx steels. I put my z-wear billets on hold until my proper press is delivered this summer.

To the OP, as a basic rule, the higher the carbide volume, the lower the ease of forging, as forging requires dislocations that carbides prevent.
 
My personal thoughts is that a 304/316ss combo, as cladding over a high alloy core is the least insane way of doing this. Or, damasteel over your preferred core.
 
best bet woudl be to go all powdered steel do the pattern in powder then HIP the can. at that point forging into a usable bar while it ould still suck at least the layers would already be built up
 
I'd go with a metal printing and then sinter the green print. I just don't have 130K sitting around for the printer although MarkForge is turning out some interesting products on the small industrial scale.
 
Uddeholm and some of those fellows over there are already making the stuff you want. Damasteel with N11X core - Damacor.
I haven't tried it yet, but it should make superior high end kitchen blades.
 
butcher_block said:
best bet woudl be to go all powdered steel do the pattern in powder then HIP the can. at that point forging into a usable bar while it ould still suck at least the layers would already be built up
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I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Can you get s110v and Maxamet in powder, or are you suggesting a different steel combination?

Also, it seems that a lot of people are suggesting damasteel over a core. I will have to research that a bit more, as I haven't seen much damasteel in the "Super cool innovative supersteel" category. :)

Last thing, do you folks know where to get the exotic supersteels that sparked this conversation (s110v and Maxamet)? Just out of curiosity.

Chimaera
 
Chimaera said:
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Can you get s110v and Maxamet in powder, or are you suggesting a different steel combination?

Also, it seems that a lot of people are suggesting damasteel over a core. I will have to research that a bit more, as I haven't seen much damasteel in the "Super cool innovative supersteel" category. :)

Last thing, do you folks know where to get the exotic supersteels that sparked this conversation (s110v and Maxamet)? Just out of curiosity.

Chimaera
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Niagara Specialty Metals has most CPM steels, and Alpha Knife Supply has several high alloy steels. Z-max is quite close to maxamet (Z-max is identical to Rex-86.)

You will need a great press, precise temp control, and a surface grinder to even have the slightest hope of forge welding this stuff together.
 
If you really want to pursue this, DevinT is the person to get in touch with. Harbeer (HSC) has had more success than me with z-wear, and William Brighton has done a fair bit of stainless forge welding. Salem Straub forges damasteel with a 300lbs power hammer.
 
Let's see... great press, precise temp control, and a surface grinder. I don't have any of those. Still just fascinated by the lure of hope. I also don't have the budget to get those steels, so I won't trash any (because I won't have any).
 
DevinT said:
It can be done but the cost would be astronomical. A simpler pattern weld would have less failures.
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This is hypothetical, partially because of that insane cost. You think that non-spirograph would turn out better?
 
It's not that the steels are all that expensive. Yeah they are expensive knives steels but AKS is probably the best place to find the although they no longer carry Crucible steels so you are going to have to buy from Crucible probably so not a small piece. If they could be welded you would have to find the narrow range in the forging window that they could be forged at. Then high alloy steel needs to be heated in a oxygen free environment so you are talking about stainless steel envelopes in a kiln with a very narrow range to forge in so lots of heats and lots of stainless foil unless a salt pot could be used. After that forging to shape would be a thing so it's on to the grinder and then a big bill in belts. If it is possible the labor cost would be enough to buy a new car especially with the expense of all the overhead. A San Mai should be possible and something that could be used. Then you would have to find a heat treatment that worked for both of them and would probably not be best for either.

You said that you didn't want brittle steel but both of those are not tough steels. They will not do well with fine edges though they can cut for a long time.
 
Thank you for taking the time out of your day to tell me how ridiculous I am. I mean that in the best way possible. =)
 
Chimaera said:
Oh God. This was always hypothetical, but now I'm just in shock....:confused:
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That's why people are telling about things like damasteel that you could clad the blade with and put in a core. Looks and the edge you want. Still not cheap but can be done. The reason much Damascus is 15n20 and 1084 is that they have similar heat treatment and still give a great pattern. If steels are to far apart in the way they shrink when they cool down they can RIP apart. Then when it comes to heat treatment it is highly targeted for a intended use and the heat control is tighter than what most bakers would use. Many knife makers actually add extra thermo couples to map out their ovens to make sure they are both accurate and even. So when you take to crazy steels and mix them the chance of getting less than one on it's own is high.
 
Ok. Thank you for dumbing it down for me. :) I'm pretty new to this, heard a lot of good things about both these steels, seemed like just from their edge retention, corrosion resistance, brittleness etc., they could go well together. I just wasn't able to find their forging temps, heat treat temps, metallurgy, etc., so I wasn't able to just kibosh the idea. Thank you for your help in putting my mind at ease. So, you suggested a damasteel cladding on a core. What would you suggest for a core (keeping in mind that this is a relatively thin, small knife), and you mean the brand damasteel, right? Not just an abbreviation for damascus? Thanks.

Chimaera
 
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