Defense against dogs

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Mar 19, 2001
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Could you share your thoughts and advice about defense against large, angy, unleashed dogs which one sometimes encounters walking around town. I normally have the 5 inch Cold Steel Gunsite folding knife on me. I also have bear repellent which I could carry, but often don't.
 
OC works pretty well against dogs who haven't committed to an attack yet. If they're standing off and posturing a good blast can convince them to go somewhere else.

I've found that once they're in attack mode, you might as well be spraying them with water.
 
an instructor of mine told us never try to stair a dog down. More aggressive dogs will take this as a sign of aggression. Picking up a stick and waving it, is probably the worst thing you can do according to my instructor, because its like a direct threat towards the dog which will make him attack. If its a stray or an abuse animal its probably been hit before so it knows whats coming. My suggestion is spray oc in its face, make yourself look bigger. However, I've been told that with poorly breed large aggressive dogs, this doesn't work. If you don't have a weapon on you than don't turn and run because you won't make it. I was taught to keep my chin closer to my chest bend my knees in a semi squat position that way you can strike the dog or choke him out. standing upright you don't have a chance.
 
Evolute,
This is an awful broad subject for me to cut my teethe on, but here goes.
I have a good amount of experience here so I will share my thoughts. The first gentleman is correct, you may get a minimal reaction to OC but nothing to risk your life on. My dogs like Tabasco sauce! Other irritants such as CN/CS (Tear Gas) will have no effect other than initial shock from the propellant.
I believe in very simple concepts that are based on constants that I deploy consistently.
In other words I fight the same way empty handed as I do with a gun or a Knife. I fight an animal almost the same as a human. I go for the same target areas. I rely on me, not tools. Tools are an aid but if they fail you better be ready to back it up with some fundamentals.
Most healthy dogs will not attack unless trained to do so. Generally a confident unafraid individual will stifle a dogs desire to attack.
Confidence in this case comes from training and experience.
I am not a fan of chemical agents they are to inconsistent and if they don't work one still has to mix it up with the subject or dog in this case and you will then be contaminated or worse.
My back-up weapon will always be my knife and if I have to use it things are bad. The proper technique is run the blade along the nose into the eye and then brain.
To the spiritual the eyes are the window to the soul to the tactical they are the freeway to the brain.
I caution you and anyone else, to take a life in any circumstance, you better be sure it is necessary otherwise you will pay for it.
My favorite less-lethal technique would be an ASP baton. They are small and compact or any other stick for that matter.
The target area is the NOSE. This will work!
Now, knowing this you have confidence and that is 90% of the battle, and believe me the dog will read that long before you think about it.
 
Some years ago, the postal service came up with the idea of a "dogbrella" supplying letter carriers wih a standard small folding umbrella, to partially open and flap at the menacing animal.

I don't know how widespread or effective this was. Where I worked, in NYC, it wasn't the problem it can be in the suburbs or rural areas.

But one 'dark and stormy night' I was walking home from work, through Central Park, as usual, and I saw <i>and heard</i> a large Doberman approaching me, snarling. Instead of going for the dagger I carried, I remembered the "dogbrella" idea, lowered my fairly large umbrella, and flapped it. It worked! The dog backed off! Then the owner came around the turn, and walked off with it.

OK, OK, so you don't walk around with an umbrella ... I usually have a folding one in the bottom of my backpack, though.
 
Thank you CJ. I'll look into getting an ASP baton and practicing with it. I'm not sure if I'd be able to aim a knife well enough to get it into the eye of a charging dog, but I should be practicing with my knife, too.

Regarding confidence, all the dogs I've encountered so far have backed down when I stood my ground and made it clear that I wasn't going to be an easy mauling.

I'll be conscientious not to use deadly force on a dog unnecessarily. As a professional nature photographer, I can assure you I respect the lives of animals highly.
 
I may have something to add to the discussion about defense against dogs. Any dog is born (Not trained) to jump and pull prey down. If you have the nerve to drop and face the dog at his eye level you are much bigger and the dog will growl etc. but not attack. Be warned that you MUST be willing to engage if necessary or the dog will sense this. That is why dogs are the best real estate attorneys in the world
 
I was told to give it something (like an arm wrapped with a shirt or coat) to bite on if the dog gonna attack you. When it was busy gnawing away, keep punching it in the head until it let's go.
 
First, let me start off by saying that I am a professional dog trainer. I've been involved in ALL aspects of dog training for the last 14 years. I know a thing or two about dog behavior.

I'm not picking on you larsen, but your advise could get someone seriously injured, or worse. Squating down is the WORST thing you can do when facing an aggressive dog! That can trigger a predator/prey response faster than you can yell "Oh S*it!". You need to remain upright for several reasons: First, you MUST be bigger than the dog. You can't do this on all fours. This is one of the main reasons why children are so often victims of dog attacks. I'm not going into the specifics (way too much to type), but if you squat down you WILL be perceived as a small, vulnerable, prey object. Next, you simply can not fight well if you're on the ground. That's the way dogs fight, not people. Last, that dog will close the gap faster than you ever thought possible. When he gets there, he's going to bite the first thing he reaches. You DON'T want that to be your face! If you're standing, "feed" him your arm. If you have a knife, that's the time to stab from UNDER the dog, not from the side, into his chest or throat. If you come in from the side, he will see it and may get you first.

One last piece of advice... When first confronted, calmly, but in a loud, firm voice, shout "KNOCK IT OFF! SIT! SIT! (repeat as needed). If he does sit, then "STAY!" And believe it or not, finish with "Good Boy/Girl!". If the dog is not a stray, but just an unruly pet, these will be familiar to him and his conditioned response will be to obey. You'd be amazed at how well/often that will work.

There is no one/easy answer. A dog (doesn't have to be a huge one) that is determined to cause you harm, is a VERY formidable opponent! My partner and I, with a combined weight of almost 500 pounds, recently had to deal with a very aggressive, 60 pound, mixed shepard. We were finally able to subdue him, but not until he lifted/dragged us both, tore the pants of my partner and use his back paws to redecorate my forearms! I have a thousand other stories to prove my point. Dogs are TOUGH! HTH

RR
 
Do you think that displaying a stick or knife effectively intimidates dogs additionally to simply being confident?
 
Absolutely not! For the simple reason that dogs don't have a clue as to what a knife or stick is, so therefore, no intimidation factor. Sudden movements should be avoided, so DON'T wave stuff in his face! That could trigger an attack. If you have a knife or stick, be prepared to use them, but don't think you'll scare him away with them. Some may run, but those dogs probably would even if you didn't have a weapon. Also, if that dog has been abused and hit with a stick before, he may not appreciate it that you have one!

RR
 
While I realize most domesticated dogs are trained the same way, using similar words I would not rely on that, nor do I agree with using a knife against an animal. Animals, ALL ANIMALS, are instinctual. In this case we are talking about a dog, walking around town without an owner, or a leash. Giving it a command is probably not going to work as "most people" don't have their dogs loose. However the tone of your voice and the fear you emminate are VERY IMPORTANT. If you fear an animal, large or small, they will pick that up and since they are not familiar with you, instead of understanding that emotional response as "fear" they will register it as "aggression" and that accounts for the vast majority of animal attacks.
If you encounter a trained animal chances are you will not give the appropriate command. Remember, people and dogs have been together a long time, training has come to the point where some people will train their animals in opposites, that is, stay means fight, sit means jump, etc. The best way to defend yourself from an animal is to give it the space is deserves, and when the paths have to cross, just as you would expect and demand, RESPECT the animal both for it's known abilities and for it's unknown temperment.
 
Evolute,
I do not like having to qualify myself to often, I would much rather just prove it. Let it be known that I will not comment on a subject unless I have a good amount of experience with the subject. My animal time comes from my upbringing in upstate NY(very rural) always in the woods. My time in the Navy put me with my Mammal Project Brothers and my time in Law Enforcement taught me many things not the least of which is that the so called experts do not always know best, experience is invaluable.
I put one of my Akitas through their K9 school (South FL) my dogs obedience skills was already equal and in many cases better than their veteran dogs. However their discipline methods caused a major problem as they were too severe and for my animal unnecessary. This proved to me that one must go with their own instincts and not always the pros.
At any rate, I wanted you to understand after reading about your profession, and that this question might be very serious to you, I would like to explain further.
As a new police officer I was disgusted at many things through my years but one was the need to kill animals that were protecting the owner. I volunteered to respond first whenever a dangerous dog might be present, usually in a drug scenario.
My technique as I already eluded to was the same as with a man. If one does not know what the target is as in knife defense than I will provide a favorable one to at least give me a given and to also now limit what I have to defend. Therefore I would where a piece of leather on my forearms, it was under my shirt and allowed me to remain undercover on my approach I had steel studs in it so that the dog would not get a good bite and would release without ever really getting a hold on me. I then would grab him with my right arm around the neck and carry him out. If he was too big I would go to ground and pass him out like I would a person.
You see I would give him my arm to strike if of course intimidation did not work and he was coming anyway.
So you see I knew that if all else failed I knew I could still get him, and that signal was sent telepathically loud and clear.
As a Frogman I have operated in some of the worst jungles and waters in the world, and I always knew that if it became a bad day and I had no gun, knife, or anything else I would always ATTACK THE EYES! I shoot at the eyes, I stab the eyes, I will rip the eyes out, get my meaning. If I am going down with anything from human (doubtful) or bear I will go down fighting..
 
indicated that dealing with an abuse aggressive dog. a stick might just set it off. As my previous thread has indicated.. I've been looking to purchase a dog for home protection as well as a pet. I've been to several places who raise pet quality dogs for protection work. Some of the people are true experts while other are not. I've seen a back yard type breeder pick up the a stick and that dog knew that it was going to get a beating. So I think that when you indicate that a dog doesn't know what a stick means or a knife means, I would think that it all depends on how it was brought up. I don't know about that anyone who has every house trained a dog.. by spanking it with a news paper " i have not house broken my dog that way" but been around people who have. That dog knows that its going to get spanked. when the owner picks up the paper.

Secondly, I was not suggesting that you should squat down! I was indicating that if the dog is already charging at you you should squat down in a horse stance in order to get better stronger punching power and to try and coke it out! If you had read the previous line I indicated that one should try to make yourself appear bigger, prior to the attack.
 
If you re-read my second post, you will see that I did mention that waving a stick at an abused dog is not a good idea, for obvious reasons. Next, you never said anything about a horse stance, you said to drop and meet him at his eye level. Sounds like two very different things to me. There are lots of different reasons for dog aggression and you have no idea what happened to the dog that is confronting you. Anything you do will be a guess. At least 99% of the people that run into an aggressive dog do not have the experience or proper mental attitude to deal with it. I've seen lots of people get bit over the years, but in dealing with extremely aggressive dogs (and many other species as well), I've never been bit because I know what I'm doing. Someone with CC's experience, physical and mental preparedness, can deal with dogs as he suggested. How many of us can say we have the same abilities and attitude as CC? My advice was meant to point out a good first line of defense for the most common type of dog/person encounter. There are TONS of variables and options. Enough to fill a book. Your choice is simple...Either heed the advice of someone who has handled countless thousands of dogs, or don't. If you ever encounter a super aggressive dog, drop into your horse stance and hope that it's the right choice for that situation. You might get lucky! :)
 
Why on earth would anyone stand in 'horse stance' during almost any kind of violent confrontation? It's only meant as a training tool. If it's stability you're after, there's better ways to get it.

Also, I don't claim to know anything about surviving encounters with dogs (I've always backed off and found away around the dog, and have had the luxury of being able to do that) but it seems to me that standing like that invites the animal to take a big bite out of your testicles. And this is a bad thing.

The funny thing about these threads is that while they give you and idea of 'things to do', they also inevitably turn up 'things not to do'.
 
The nose is a great target. Hitting a dog in the nose very well may have saved my life. I am not an expert on anything tactical but I have experienced a life threatening attack from a dog. It was by far the most deadly ambush that I have ever experienced.
I lived in an area where there was a number of fighting dogs. Fighting dogs all have one thing in common. They are conditioned, often brutally, by their owners to act aggresively. These people suck and should be the subject of their dog's aggression, but hey that's just me.
I was walking up to a house that had no fence or warning signs to make a delivery. When I got about 10 feet from the porch all hell broke loose. A battled scarred Pitt Bull exploded from from underneith the porch closing the distance so fast that the only thing I had time for was an adrenalin dump.
As the dog lunged my body did something that I did'nt tell it to and the dog stopped dead in its charge for a split second. At this moment I consciouly commanded my body to fly backwards (probably wasn't pretty). This is the moment that I remember. As soon as I did this the dog exploded forward again lunging into my void and hit the end of its chain just barely missing me with a violent jaw snapping.
Looking back on it the only thing that kept me from being mauled was that single unconscious action. At the moment that the Pit was on me I had swung my clipboard down like a knife edge across the top of the dog's nose as hard as I could. Again, I didn't think "I need to swing this clipboard as hard as I can" it just happened. It made a loud CRACK upon impact and stopped a beserking ball of muscle and teeth for half a second allowing me to get out of the chained dog's scope. It was just reaction and maybe somehow my training was in there somewhere. Who knows where it came from but it saved my skin.
The kicker is that as I stood in the middle of the street completely amped and a little freaked out I noticed a woman standing just beyond the screen door, staring at me. She didn't say anything and then turned away.
 
Hi,
Within the past 3 months, I had 2 potentially dangerous run-ins with dogs at the beach. Thought I might share these experiences.

The first was at a tourist resort in Thailand, where they offer horse rides: 3 of my 4 chldren (ages 11, 6 and 4) rode and I walked/ran besides them. As we passed a beach house, 2 dogs- german shepard and rotweiller- ran at the horses and trying to nip at the horses legs. I think they were being playful, but were scaring the horses. The horse handlers were able to gets the dogs off. Turning around, we passed the same house and the same dogs came to attack/play. This time, the horses were getting panicky and started to raise their front legs. I was getting _very_ concerned because my children were novice riders and the horse handlers were unable to get the dogs away this time. So, I threw sand at the dogs when they came within arm's length. This did the trick and they no longer attacked the horses. Only problem is, they changed their target and came for me. Fortunately, after the Rotweiller had more sand thrown in it's face, it decided to back off. However. the German Shepard was in attack mode. The horses were quite far away by now, so I didn't have to worry about my children's safety. I tried walking calmly away, facing the dog but this tactic didn't work. It must have made about 7 or 8 charges at me and each time I would throw sand in its face from about six feet away, just before it was about to leap. By now, I had my knife (Spiderco Military) in my other hand and was pretty much resigned to the fact that I was going to be mauled, and was just hoping the Rotweiller wouldn't join in. My mindset was that I would "give" my left hand and keep thrusting repeatedly with my knife to the belly. I remember at the time that I was annoyed with myself for not having time to wrap my left arm with my belt. Having never grappled with a dog before except in play with my pet, I was not too hopefull that this plan would work, but I really had no more choice. At this point, one of the horse handlers came charging with his whip and attacked the dog. I guess the sight of two of us coming at it was quite daunting so it ran off. Very lucky escape for me indeed.

I learnt several lessons that day.
I will never let my children ride on the beach again if they haven't had lessons in a proper riding school.
I will _always_ carry an asp where I think there may be stray dogs. Incidently, these were private dogs and the lady owner was sitting outside her house the whole time watching. I later learnt from the handlers that this dog has caused problems in the past. The owner cant even handle the G Shepard, having bit her several times. The local law even bans unleashed dogs on the beach and the horse riding activity is properly licensed.
Never underestimate the ferocity of a pi$$ed off animal. I will do all I can to avoid trouble (our number 1 rule), especially when with my family. In this case, I don't really know what else I could have done to keep the dogs away from the horses. I can look after myself when confronted with humans who want to do me harm, but animals are an unknown quantity. Has anyone successfully fended off a dog attack with a 4" knife? This thread has been very informative and I am learning alot from reading the various posts. Many thanks to you all for that.

I have another incident to recount but didn't realize this one would be so long. My apologies.
Thanks for listening,
Tik
 
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