Do you think the Butterfly knife is a good choice for a self-defence weapon?

[Angel of Death]

Even if your a Jedi Master who can do a million zillian combos with your Bali using with both hands all while incorperating a dozen aerals, around your back, sholder, neak, whatever all at the speed of light.... But now consider yourself under pressure and in a combat situation! All those skills suddenly vanish and your left fumbling with your Bali trying to get even the most simplest opening down all while giving the chance of your attacker(s) (mugger, nutter, drunk, whoever) to make the first move.

God forbid that anyone of us would have to actual ever draw a Bali on someone with the intention on using it to protect yourself. But we've all been in simlar situations were its either you.... or... them

So is the Balisong a good choice of knife for self-defence? Is it too impractical? Or is it perfect? What do you reckon?

 

[Darth Detori]

well I mean I carry two on my anyway, so any two knives is a good defense, but I do think I could at least pull off a latch drop from the sheath in under a second, which could be all I needed.

now given the other person had a knife too, you could deflect hits with the back of the latch handle, you could whack him with the handles, and of course you've got the cutting power. It does lack a really effective hand guard which is it's main downfall, but one could still cope.

I'm not really a martial artist, so i can't really say.

 

[ocyrus]

Let me say this, After your Bali is open it is as good as any other knife. The trick is to hone your brain As never to go full combat,however we are not allways in charge of this it does happen. allways remember that one Instant-Open move. Train your mind to stay out of tight spots like if you step out from the side of building step wide give yourself quartering room never step into a blind spot.Sad to say this is a fact of life. Now if you want the ultmate defense= Buy Glock=40 Cal it is differnt for each of us. I jest feel good about the blade. Remember a Knife is NNNNever a match for a Gun...........OCYRUS....you are what you swing........Or Shoot.

 

[Angel of Death]

Of course a Gun would be the most obvious choice for self defence but thats just not possible in the UK, they are just plain outright outlawed not even with a licence are you allowed to carry one - check my location

Even Bali's are illegal here

 

[ocyrus]

Angel, I would carry my Bali-Song legal or not WHEN when the moment of truth happens ,Legal dont mean spit Better to be alive and charged ,than dead and legal. Carry Discreetly. ..... OCYRUS....YOU ARE WHAT SWING.

 

[Dawkind]

Originally posted by Angel of Death
Of course a Gun would be the most obvious choice for self defence but thats just not possible in the UK, they are just plain outright outlawed not even with a licence are you allowed to carry one - check my location

Even Bali's are illegal here

"I WOULD RATHER BE TRIED BY TWELVE THAN BE CARRIED BY SIX!" That doesn't stop criminals from carrying firearms and I'll be damned before that would stop me from defending myself and family!!!!!!!! You chaps were hosed down by your government that "knew what was best for their citizens." It's too bad.........

 

[Angel of Death]

Agreed, Dawkind and Ocyrus. Legal doesn't mean squat when it comes down to protecting yourself or maybe even your family. Personally I just feel vunrable when I'm out and about without my Bali, I don't go anywhere without it, legal or illegal, I don't care, where I go, my Bali goes. Its that simple.

As for firearms here its just simply an impossibility, they are very strict about Gun laws. Even if you could get HOLD of any type of real firing weapon here and if you were caught with it, you'd be lituarlly thrown in jail or fined, probarly both. I dread to think what would happen to you if you actually used it on someone even in self defence. The court would probarly see it as "You had an illegal weapon that allowed you to use deadly force upon a person that is not prohibited by law", even the attacker has rights here, and this would all be taken in to account and in most cases you would be tried for manslaugher, not selfdefence. Not even our police carry Guns. Only the S.W.A.T teams, special ops or other military personal.

Its one messed up law system.

 

[Don Rearic]

I think as you described it, many different openings and tossing them, uh...no. There is a difference between the Manipulation Skill for the sake of enjoyment...and a straight up Combat Opening/Manipulation Skill. If you are going to carry one for the purpose of Self-defense, well, that's why you have to literally make thousands of repetitions with just a horizontal or basic vertical opening.

The great strength of the Balisong is its' safety open or closed, and in the closed position, just carried in a jacket pocket with your hand on it, etc., you have something that you can deal with attacks. Using it as an Impact Weapon. It is very effective.

That's where I think it shines.

As for using the handles as a flail, unless you have a Samson Custom or the new Monarch Balisong, very chunky steel, or a SWAT Brass Tiger, Fawgeddaboutit, you're going to piss someone off.

A steel or brass handled Balisong that is substantial, could take some teeth right out of someone's head, put an eye out, and possibly break a wrist or fingers if you really got in a good shot. That is one area some people do not agree with. Two schools of thought.

One school is, "Use everything except the flail aspect."

The other school of thought is, "Use everything on the Balisong."

Hope this helped.

 

[Angel of Death]

I myself have also considered the flail as a quick 'stun' attack method. An upper cut blow to the chin of the opponent would be ideal(any other part of the head should be avoided). Limbs, fingers, etc are also good targets but certainly not the best. If you've ever banged yourself or be hit by a force from under your chin you'll know what I mean by being 'stunned' and thats why I would consider it being the perfect target for a flair attack.

Not to mention that it would take quite a bit of force for a light Balisong to stun an opponent otherwise as you said you'd just simply piss them off and enraging them even more, which is dangerous. In theory anyway this sort of attack 'should' stun them and allow you time to contiune the flow of movement in to a basic opening and once they have regained their senses they now have a fully opened and fixed blade pointing at their face.

Hopefully they will see they are outmatched and things won't progress much further from there as no ones is going to attack you when you have an open knife pointing at them, unless they are really crazy.

 

[Little claw]

Legality is always an important factor when selecting a defensive weapon and is the overriding factor in this case.

In the UK, the legislation says that you can carry a folding knife with an edge of 3" or less (Case law may now exclude locking knives, though) without any specified reason.

If you carry, say, an AFCK with a 3.9" blade, that is an offensive weapon, therefore illegal to carry, unless *you* can prove that you have a specific legitimate reason for having it on your person (hunting, fishing, camping, sailing, work use, etc.) "In case I need it" and "I'm going to a barbie, ossifuh" are not legit reasons. "Self defence" is unacceptable, under our law, as a reason for carrying any item, including bananas.

So an AFCK can be legal or not, depending on the situation. But the bias is toward illegal. A Balisong however is legally defined (by name and description) as an *offensive weapon*, therefore you have *no* excuse for carrying one. And since they were banned when you were 6 years old, the authorities may want to know how and where you got it/them.

If you value your bali and appreciate how difficult it is to get one here (not to mention the potential legal cost to you) you won't risk
losing it to some nebulous idea of using it for self defence. You may think its worth facing the music after you've "defended your life" with your bali but consider this:

1. You are more likely to be relieved of your bali in a benign "stop & search" situation than after disemboweling a BG, and

2. Defending yourself with an *offensive weapon* that you were carrying beforehand raises the question of criminal intent, thereby undermining your "self defence" defence and leaving you open to criminal and civil lawsuits.


If you insist on carrying a knife for self defence, and I recommend that you don't, go for a Syderco Delica, BM 705 or the like. These knives will give you a better (though not ideal) legal position and are just as fast (and arguably more reliable under pressure) to bring into play. Keep your Balisong at home like the rare treasure that it is.

While Swindon may be a little rough of a Friday night, you and I are fortunate to live in a country where the need to routinely arm oneself hasn't yet arisen. The laws surrounding balis and the carrying of knives or other weapons for self defence may be misguided in some ways, but you may lose more if you ignore them.

You will be better able to protect yourself by attending a short self-defence course, which emphasises awareness & avoidance as well as physical techniques, than you will by carrying *any* knife that money can buy. These fourms, by their very nature, concentrate on knives and often their defensive features and usefulness, but that doesn't mean that knives are a panacea for street survival. A guy with a knife and no tactical awareness might as well carry a banana for self defence. A guy with a banana and a tactical head will survive long enough to die in his bed.

If you check out some of the "It Happened to Me" or "Has it Happened to You?" threads, after a while you'll see a common theme of "It wouldn't have happened at all if I'd been awake at the time".

Even if you take a self defence course, or choose to take up a martial art, I recommend the book "Dead Or Alive" by Geoff Thompson.
It is *the* single best book on self defence that I have read. I got mine from Waterstone's but you should be able to order a copy from any High St bookstore.

Be mellow,

Dom

 

[Angel of Death]

Thanks for your carefully detailed imput from another UK citizen little claw, you've certainly widened my eyes a little more.

Today I was lituarly thrown out of another UK board... well not thrown out, I left myself in disgust because all my posts were deleted afer I mentioned the Balisong Knife and self defence. It is a very delicate topic and thats why I bought it up here so I could learn as much as possible.

Self defence via martial arts sounds like a perfect solution... but its just 'not' for me, I HAVE tried it once a while back but I just didn't like it. Nothing seemed to be happening, I wasn't gaining anything except losing money for tuition fee's and I certainlly wasn't enjoying it.

Point taken about Balisong and defence though, after the ear bashing I've had today, I'll think about it twice next time before I arm myself with me trusty Balisong, as your right it is a rare treasure and I enjoy the beauty and art of solely manipulating it more than anything else

 

[ocyrus]

I must say you have opened my eyes also to Things in UK-. Diddent know they had Stop snd search -there. This all sounds like Tommyrot. This is not freedom its oppression,I have known few britts the ones i did know were good men all. Sad to say could be that way here before LONG..OCYRUS....YOU ARE WHAT YOU SWING.....

 

[WrongFriend]

It's iterated many times, still a good question. You can take one(s) from many choice, including a bunch of bodyguards, or a well trained dog... much better than a hand gun, and a knife. But among knives, a balisong is a good choice for a balisong fan. If an adequate knife fight training is not available, IMHO the most inportant thing is that you know what your knife is, can do, and cannot do. A bali lover may have spent much more time with his/her bali than other knife fans. Aerials, dazzling weird techniques don't work at the "moment of truth", but the time of practice will keep skills in hand even if brain forgets all the memories about the knife.

 

[willOthewisp]

Self defence via martial arts sounds like a perfect solution... but its just 'not' for me

If that's the case, then I submit that self defense by edged device (bali or otherwise) is not for you either. To be effective in a combative situation, any weapon you may use must feel like an extension of your body. It sounds, from your above statement, that you are uncomfortable with or are just plain unwilling to learn to use your body in combative situations. By extension, no matter what item you chose to perform a defensive role will not ever be something you really know what to do with.

Alternate wording: If you feel that you need to carry an item to use in a SD situation, then you simply must learn how (and when) to use it, and how to deal with the possibility of being disarmed before the situation comes to a resolution. Which brings us back to a H2H martial art of some kind. To do otherwise will get you hurt, or dead.

Yet another alternate wording: Consider for a moment what the average thug has going for him. Very little. He (or she) has likely opted to behave like a thug out of an unwillingness or inability to learn/work/adapt. This means that your average thug is likely not going to have any combat training, but has decided that a knife or gun will be an acceptable substitute. Sound familiar? I'm not trying to imply that you are a "thug," but, in a confrontation with one, having yourself adopted a very thug-like attitude towards MA's/combat training, you will have absolutely no tactical advantage. Yes, you may have opened your bali in an expeditious & deterring way ... but he's still coming. Now what?

Do you see my point here? If SD is as important to you as your thread seems to indicate, then you must be prepared for the eventuality. No knife will substitute for training.

Good luck, stay safe,
Jon

 

[Lothar.OTHP]

I think I got in an argument with Don about this once. Basically I said most situations could be avoided, and was promptly corrected. Many of them can, but there are times that a fight can't be avoided. So staying awake will help most of the time, but not always. If you have to go wide awake into nastiness though, I'd skip the knife thing. Baseball bats have yet to be declared illegal, or lead pipes, walking sticks, canes, pool sticks (A good cheap two piece has a nice weight in the end of it that will hurt someone, adn you can carry it in a carrying case) ... all of those are longer, heavier, and with some degree of skill are just easier. They're legal, and have a better reach. (meaning the guy with a knife will have to get closer and be more easily hurt) BUT that's only if you go fully aware into a mess. To quote an old president, "Walk softly and carry a big stick"


MOst of what I'm going to say has already been written here, but I'll spout some more quotes, just for fun...

As for legality, Bob Terzuola (A good enough custom knifemaker to now be working with Benchmade and Spyderco) Made a comment a long time ago in a soldier of fortune-ish magazine that The best quality to look for in a tactical knife isn't blade length or style, but that it's THERE. I.E., that it's in your pocket, and usable. When it comes to balisongs, that may or may not bring in questions of legality. Better to carry a legal one, if you insist on defending yourself with a knife, than an illegal one, lest you get locked up in the clink without one, and have to go without. Spydero, BM, Microtech, etc etc, all make good stuff, and I'll end it here, because that argument was presented already.

On the other hand, Jeff Imada (Author of the Balisong handbook, and balisong consultant for hollywood) makes the point that someone who looks like they know how to handle their knife will be able to intimidate his or her opponents, and opening manipulations can work well for this. I doubt he means a triple throw over the shoulder followed by a five minute routine... etc etc... But the point is that intimidation may help ward off an encounter. The downside is that if it doesn't, either the guy is big and dumb (and you're in for a time of it), really smart and knows what he's doing, (and you're in for a time of it) or he has a gun (and you're f***ed)

Most of it boils down, like others have said, to knowing what you're doing. Awareness of your surroundings, and enough training or natural skill (I'll go with training anyday) will enable you to at least survive an attack. Whetheryou're using a knife from your pocket, or a borrowed bottle from a wino, a clear head is still the best offensive weapon. Tactics, strategy, and movement all stem from there.

My suggestion would be to find a different martial art that you can enjoy. If Karate isn't your thing, try some others. Many Kung-Fu places offer weapon training, and there are other places that do Filipino stick fighting, etc, etc. Either way, keep looking.

A good knife, even the best knife, is still only a tool to be used by an artist. It's your choice whether you go with fingerpainting or something a little more advanced.

 

[7Cain]

Originally posted by willOthewisp

To be effective in a combative situation, any weapon you may use must feel like an extension of your body.
Jon

After all, a naked man who has mastered such a combative art would have a better chance of survival than a fully armed imbecile should they ever meet. An old friend of mine was a security gaurd for a low income housing project, he is a long time Akido practitioner and he was unarmed. Well the company he worked for issued camcorders for all the patrol cars, and one time he and his partner came up to a gang of 8 "thugs" standing around a coke machine, a couple of them had small clubs and chains. Well he ended up stacking 6 of those guys in a pile infront of his patrol car while his partner took the other 2, they did not look too comfortable.(that was a fun video to watch) It just goes to show that if you can't controll your body well, then anything you try to use will also fall short.

 

[ocyrus]

I have learned that BADDASS is not a physical condition it is a state of mind. You are what you swing.......OCYRUS....I would rather have a 10 penny nail than nothing.

 

[Angel of Death]

I must admit, thats a good point willOthewisp. I never thought of it that way.

Perhaps my comments about MA's were a bit blunt, dont' get me wrong I am very interested in MA's and Bali's (The second part goes without saying really ) but the Judo classes I went to really, REALLY did suck badly! It pretty much put me off the idea of MA's for good - I must of went about been 3 times, half of the time we seem to be rolling around on the floor and the rest of the time we were discusing about the Japanese (or some) language and other crap which I have to be quite honest with you.... bored the hell out of me.

I like a certain amount of excitment and motivation to keep me at something and when I meant MA's isn't for me - I meant "that class I took wasn't for me". I'm thinking about MA's again, but this time learning myself (As I seem to be my own best teacher) what are your views on self taught MA's?

 

[Lothar.OTHP]

Self taught is very very hard. There are a few things to keep in mind, though...

-you can't see for yourself what you're doing wrong, and conversely, you don't know for sure if you're doing it right, or just going through the motions.

-Learning in a class can be both bad AND good. If the class is lazy, so (more than likely) will you be. On the other hand, when you're working with a bunch of other interested people, you learn more, and you learn better.

-Teaching yourself you will have know way of assessing how well you are doing, so you may be doing far worse than you think you are.

-It's easier to learn or teach yourself if you have enough of a background (in theory and practice) in what you're trying to learn. If you have some experience, you'll know your own weaknesses and downfalls better, and can watch out for them. If you're just a beginner, it'll be very hard to know where to begin, and just how solid your foundations are.

It sucks that you had such a bad time at the Judo class. I don't know where you are, or what kind of variety you have open to you, but look around as much as you can. Most good dojos and other martial arts centers will let you sit in and watch one of their classes if you ask, so visit a few and see what they're doing. Talk to the instructors. Don't be afraid to ask as many questions as you want. Don't be afraid to walk out, either.

As far as a start on how to approach it, there's a book (you'll have to forgive the title) called The Complete Idiot's Guide to Martial Arts. It goes over most of the mainstream styles, and a few other lesser known ones, and offers points on how to choose where to go, such as what to look for, and what questions to ask. I'm sure there are other books out there as well, and you may know some friends who know something.

It basically comes down to doing your homework. Just like with buying knives, or anything else... know what you're looking for before you go out to find it.

Martial arts places are like pretty much everything else in this world: There are some places that do a quality job, and others that barely get the job done if that. So if you ended up (accidentally) at the "Jaguar" of martial arts joints, don't be too discouraged. Ask around, go check some of them out, and do your homework.

I know it sounds like a pain, but it'll be less work to seek out the style, studio, and teacher that you want than it will be to teach yourself anything of value. Better to have a good teacher who can see and evaluate your shortcomings and take it (and you) seriously. Better that than to hope you're getting it right and go on blind faith.

 

[Little claw]

Lothar:

I didn't mean to imply that every violent situation can be avoided, although looking at my post it seems that's what I said!

I have been interested in combat and strategy for many years now and have studied kungfu for three, so I would be a hypocrite to say that violence is never necessary. The reason that I emphasise awareness, though, is that too many folks ignore it. The fighters rely on their skill and physique, the pacifists stick their head in the sand and only a few people see the value of it. So I always bring it up!

Angel:

Self taught is hard for some, impossible for most. Apart from the technical difficulties in learning moves, a fight will involve two people at least and this interaction is a key factor. So you need to train with as many different people as you can. On top of that, if you got pissed off after 3 judo classes, I doubt you have the motivation to achieve much on your own, except a false sense of security.

So reconsider your position on MA. Most people, including judoka, admit that judo is more of a sport than a comprehensive fighting system. I sense that you did not adapt to the class structure too well, so I would expect that you would not be very happy with most of the other Japanese martial arts. Don't rule them out, though, as many teachers have differing styles and attitudes, and if you check out a few classes you should find one that you like. My recommendation would be to find a southern kungfu style such as hung gar, lau gar or wing tsun, they tend to be very practical(sometimes they look impractical due to wide open movements, which are pared down for street use) If you're lucky you may find someone near you who teaches Hsing I, Pakua or Tai Chi but make sure their focus is on combat applications or you'll be learning forms for years without learning to defend yourself. Jiu jitsu, aikido, kickboxing, JKD all have their place, but its fashionable to be JKD so there are plenty of bogus players about, and beware of anyone who names 'their system' after themselves.

Shortlist 4 or 5 classes that you can get to fairly easily (so you have no excuses!) watch a class or two for each and take a trail lesson if you can. Ask lots of questions, and pay attention not only to the answers, but the way in which your questions are recieved. Look at the class culture and see if it suits you. A little regimentation is to be expected but if they give you attitude go elsewhere. I prefer the more traditional arrangement where everybody works with everybody else regardless of gender, size or age and where questions are freely asked and answered. Most importantly, find out who's been there for 6-24 months and see what they are capable of, in particular the female students. This will give you an idea of what to reasonably expect.

Then, take it seriously, train at home. Persevere.

Glad my last post was of use to you, sorry about your experience on the UK board as it sounds unecessary, which one was it?

Dom