Off Topic don't go too hard on 420

[Planterz]

Exactly. 440A. But if we're talking about a traditional folder that is a daily carry and used primarily to cut string, rope, and packages, what's wrong with it if it sharpens easily? Most slip joints are not subjected to hard use anyway.

I almost always carry a traditional - mostly slipjoints but a couple lockbacks, and most are in simple steels. 1095, Case CV, 440A, Case Tru-sharp (soft 420HC), DIN 1.1410 (SAKs), etc. I like that it's easy to keep those knives extremely sharp, and yes, they do just fine with opening mail, cutting loose threads, shaving calluses, trimming fingernails, etc.

 

[Chronovore]

i have a knife with 8Cr13Mov. for me its harder to sharpen than 420J2, however if you claim that its stronger and better than im willing to make the compromise and never touch 420J2 ever again.
also i have 1 knife with 7Cr13 which i know nothing about and its hard to find information about.. however from just generally using it for EDC tasks it feels really good. i think my SOG sideswipe with 7Cr13 is the best knife i own purely because SOG has good quality control

There are lots of factors that matter for knife steel. I generally don't consider toughness for EDC knives as I won't be chopping, batoning, using them as levers, etc. I mostly care about edge retention and corrosion resistance. Increasing edge retention can mean increasing the amount of time it takes to sharpen, but it should ideally reduce the time between needing to be sharpened. While 8Cr isn't a big jump, you can reduce the workload for all your sharpening with better stones. Some steels also respond very well to stropping.

Steel matters but a given steel's properties be modified by heat treatment and good edge geometry. For instance, Buck does amazing things with 420HC that set it far above the average. That's the exception and not the rule. That's the reason a lot of people look down upon the 420 steels today.

I've found that 8Cr13Mov is a little better than your average 420 steels. Take a look at the chart below. It's very general and remember that heat treatment can matter. (For instance, Buck's 420HC will place with slightly better steels and cheap 440C from Ganzo will place with slightly worse steels.) Chinese D2 tends to place lower but still better than 8Cr13Mov. There are also lots of steels not on the list, such as the 7Cr steels. In my experience, 7Cr tends to be in the same general ballpark as the 8Cr steels. The point is to consider the spectrum and look at what's available in the current market.

Given the current market, I wouldn't bother with 8Cr13Mov or less. There are just too many good options in better steels. Look at Ruike or Kershaw knives in 14C28N. Look at Civivi or Real Steel knives in 9Cr18Mov. If you want to try a real budget gem, check out the Tangram Santa Fe in Acuto 440.

 

[dirc]

There are lots of factors that matter for knife steel. I generally don't consider toughness for EDC knives as I won't be chopping, batoning, using them as levers, etc. I mostly care about edge retention and corrosion resistance. Increasing edge retention can mean increasing the amount of time it takes to sharpen, but it should ideally reduce the time between needing to be sharpened. While 8Cr isn't a big jump, you can reduce the workload for all your sharpening with better stones. Some steels also respond very well to stropping.

Steel matters but a given steel's properties be modified by heat treatment and good edge geometry. For instance, Buck does amazing things with 420HC that set it far above the average. That's the exception and not the rule. That's the reason a lot of people look down upon the 420 steels today.

I've found that 8Cr13Mov is a little better than your average 420 steels. Take a look at the chart below. It's very general and remember that heat treatment can matter. (For instance, Buck's 420HC will place with slightly better steels and cheap 440C from Ganzo will place with slightly worse steels.) Chinese D2 tends to place lower but still better than 8Cr13Mov. There are also lots of steels not on the list, such as the 7Cr steels. In my experience, 7Cr tends to be in the same general ballpark as the 8Cr steels. The point is to consider the spectrum and look at what's available in the current market.

Given the current market, I wouldn't bother with 8Cr13Mov or less. There are just too many good options in better steels. Look at Ruike or Kershaw knives in 14C28N. Look at Civivi or Real Steel knives in 9Cr18Mov. If you want to try a real budget gem, check out the Tangram Santa Fe in Acuto 440.

How about just refer to our resident metallurgist results - sticky thread even - https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/i-tested-the-edge-retention-of-48-steels.1726279/

 

[DocJD]

There are lots of factors that matter for knife steel. I generally don't consider toughness for EDC knives as I won't be chopping, batoning, using them as levers, etc. I mostly care about edge retention and corrosion resistance. Increasing edge retention can mean increasing the amount of time it takes to sharpen, but it should ideally reduce the time between needing to be sharpened. While 8Cr isn't a big jump, you can reduce the workload for all your sharpening with better stones. Some steels also respond very well to stropping.

Steel matters but a given steel's properties be modified by heat treatment and good edge geometry. For instance, Buck does amazing things with 420HC that set it far above the average. That's the exception and not the rule. That's the reason a lot of people look down upon the 420 steels today.

I've found that 8Cr13Mov is a little better than your average 420 steels. Take a look at the chart below. It's very general and remember that heat treatment can matter. (For instance, Buck's 420HC will place with slightly better steels and cheap 440C from Ganzo will place with slightly worse steels.) Chinese D2 tends to place lower but still better than 8Cr13Mov. There are also lots of steels not on the list, such as the 7Cr steels. In my experience, 7Cr tends to be in the same general ballpark as the 8Cr steels. The point is to consider the spectrum and look at what's available in the current market.

Given the current market, I wouldn't bother with 8Cr13Mov or less. There are just too many good options in better steels. Look at Ruike or Kershaw knives in 14C28N. Look at Civivi or Real Steel knives in 9Cr18Mov. If you want to try a real budget gem, check out the Tangram Santa Fe in Acuto 440.

Why not just go with ceramic , if edge retention is primary concern ?

Toughness is just as important , IMO . Especially for any larger blade ,big chopper , hard use , survival , etc .

Hopefully you know how to sharpen a dull blade . But a broken blade is useless .

 

[Chronovore]

How about just refer to our resident metallurgist results - sticky thread even - https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/i-tested-the-edge-retention-of-48-steels.1726279/

There is a lot of useful information in that thread and the linked article. However, I was responding to a specific post. Some of the budget steels discussed were not among the 48 tested. I think scope is an important consideration here. The level of depth and complexity has come up in the accompanying discussion thread. I think it's worth asking, how far down the rabbit hole do we need to go on a given question?

Why not just go with ceramic , if edge retention is primary concern ?

Toughness is just as important , IMO . Especially for any larger blade ,big chopper , hard use , survival , etc .

Hopefully you know how to sharpen a dull blade . But a broken blade is useless .

Since you quoted my post, let's recall the second sentence:

"I generally don't consider toughness for EDC knives as I won't be chopping, batoning, using them as levers, etc."

We are talking about EDC folders here. I certainly hope nobody is doing anything with their EDC folders such that the difference in toughness between 420j, 7Cr13, 8Cr13Mov, 14C28N, Acuto 440, etc. actually matters.

 

[DocJD]

There is a lot of useful information in that thread and the linked article. However, I was responding to a specific post. Some of the budget steels discussed were not among the 48 tested. I think scope is an important consideration here. The level of depth and complexity has come up in the accompanying discussion thread. I think it's worth asking, how far down the rabbit hole do we need to go on a given question?



Since you quoted my post, let's recall the second sentence:

"I generally don't consider toughness for EDC knives as I won't be chopping, batoning, using them as levers, etc."

We are talking about EDC folders here. I certainly hope nobody is doing anything with their EDC folders such that the difference in toughness between 420j, 7Cr13, 8Cr13Mov, 14C28N, Acuto 440, etc. actually matters.

Sure , understood . Maybe you don't see the need for yourself . That's cool .

Except that some people do want hard use / emergency / survival capacity in their EDC folders .

To them (including me ) toughness is still important , even in a folder .

If that's all you carry , then that's all you'll have available if and when needed .

 

[Chronovore]

Sure , understood . Maybe you don't see the need for yourself . That's cool .

Except that some people do want hard use / emergency / survival capacity in their EDC folders .

To them (including me ) toughness is still important , even in a folder .

If that's all you carry , then that's all you'll have available if and when needed .

Emergency situations are real. That's why I keep a firearm in my EDC. I also have a multi-tool in my EDC. However, I don't carry dedicated tools for chopping or major prying on my person. I feel like there is a line for what's reasonable in emergency preparedness and what we're willing to lug around with us all day.

"Hard use" and "survival" folders feel like a separate category. There are people who need that for EDC. There are also specific times when someone might choose to carry one of those. (For instance, I have specific tools for "woods carry".) Normally, I think average EDC knives like what we're talking about here are not intended for batoning, chopping, prying, etc. Those are primarily cutting tools. They are not meant for tasks such that the difference in toughness between 420j, 7Cr13, 8Cr13Mov, 14C28N, etc. would be important.

As you alluded, we are all different and have different circumstances. What are your most frequent EDC folders? Do you often use them for tasks where differences in steel toughness really matter? Do you envision specific risk scenarios in which your folding knife is the only option for chopping, prying (etc.) or in which the differences in steel toughness will make or break the situation?

 

[Jake Dawson]

Ma

Emergency situations are real. That's why I keep a firearm in my EDC. I also have a multi-tool in my EDC. However, I don't carry dedicated tools for chopping or major prying on my person. I feel like there is a line for what's reasonable in emergency preparedness and what we're willing to lug around with us all day.

"Hard use" and "survival" folders feel like a separate category. There are people who need that for EDC. There are also specific times when someone might choose to carry one of those. (For instance, I have specific tools for "woods carry".) Normally, I think average EDC knives like what we're talking about here are not intended for batoning, chopping, prying, etc. Those are primarily cutting tools. They are not meant for tasks such that the difference in toughness between 420j, 7Cr13, 8Cr13Mov, 14C28N, etc. would be important.

As you alluded, we are all different and have different circumstances. What are your most frequent EDC folders? Do you often use them for tasks where differences in steel toughness really matter? Do you envision specific risk scenarios in which your folding knife is the only option for chopping, prying (etc.) or in which the differences in steel toughness will make or break the situation?

Main purpose is EDC. Mostly cutting sealing tape,wire,pipes and rarely pull out nails or carve for blueprints (wood etc)

 

[Chronovore]

Main purpose is EDC. Mostly cutting sealing tape,wire,pipes and rarely pull out nails or carve for blueprints (wood etc)

Pulling out nails is the only task where I won't use my knife blade. I'll either use another tool on hand or the multi-tool in my EDC.

Skip 8Cr13Mov. Definitely explore 14C28N. Especially considering the earlier reference to our "resident metallurgist", it might offer the best balance of properties for you.

BTW, I looked up the SOG Sideswipe. It looks to be an assisted opener with a 0.10" blade stock. BladeHQ lists the steel as 7Cr15 with a relatively soft target HRC of 55-57. The Tangram Santa Fe I recommended also opens with thumb studs. It's manual but has a strong detent so it can be flicked open nicely. Blade length and thickness are similar. I don't see handle thickness listed for the Sideswipe but it definitely looks more "grippy". Given the increase you'll get in edge retention, it might be worth the $25 just to try out a Tangram Santa Fe in the meantime while you explore some options in 14C28N.