Don't you just hate when someone asks if you could do better on the price!

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How do you do it in the jewelry store?
I get that question asked me every day and it's either a simple yes or no. When i buy a knife I offer what it's worth to me and either the dealer accepts or regects it but i usually don't try to squeeze what is fairly priced to begin with. I believe I know knife prices and would be foolish to pay more for a knife that i think it's worth to me. At the last show I looked at the knives by other makers you were selling and the knives you made. You were good on what you were asking for them except the knives that you made. I think you could have got a little more for your knives. It's just a matter of how you want to do business.
I can name knifemakers that love to haggle and I can't even get away fron their tables without them throwing a couple offers at me.
There is also a purveyor ,that sells at the shows we both attend, ask one price for a knife in Mass. and ask $200 more for the same knife in a show the next month in NY.
Everybodys style is different. Should you have put a higher price on your own handmade knives that were nicely priced to begin with
and leave room for hagglers? I don't think so. That might turn off a person that isn't a haggler with him thinking you're over pricing. Maybe for you the "this is what I have to get and that's that" is the best way to go.
 
Roy,

A maker should never haggle on price. You know what your time and materials are worth so price your knives accordingly to start with.

Makers who haggle on price very seldom are successful. As no one knows what their knives are truly worth.

As for people who know what a knife should sell for [and do not have a clue]. Let them move on to the next maker. My experience with these [folks] is that they are more trouble then they are worth. They will nickel and dime you to death.

Les

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 25 October 1999).]
 
Rene: I once discounted a guy about $100 off a really nice custom sub-hilt. When I delivered it to his house, I discovered he lived in a frieking mansion!!! He was a brain surgeon. Never again!!! Be polite, say "no, I can't-this knife is a bargain at the price I'm asking" Look them right in the eye when you say it, too.

RJ Martin
 
Now now, lets play nice here guys....

Rene, I get a lot of that for my sheaths, which I can understand somewhat, but if I really charged what I need to get my time back I'd never sell one! So when someone asks for a better price I tell them, `Sorry, but you don't have to buy one of my sheaths' I'd rather do that then really take a beating on what I'm doing.

I had one fellow at work, had a SAK Champion the big one, he wanted a horizontal sheath and a side a long flashlight the small mini-mag ones, solitare I think, anyway I told him that it would be $45 to make one for him, he gave me a weird look. Came back the next day and said there was a Leather shop down the road that would make one for $18 bucks. I said no problem, but I'd like to see it when you get it back. He came to see me the next week with the leather like pouch that the knife sat in and handed me the knife and the money for me to make him a good one. He went on to have another fellow that had the same knife come to me for one also.

So what I tell them is, `You don't have to buy it, but it is the best I can do on the price'

Sorry to run on so, must have pushed a button on me or something...
G2
 
The last thing we need to do around here is read edited posts.

I have edited the personal comments out of this thread and will continue to do so. If the post had nothing to offer it was deleted. There is a potential here for all of us to learn from eachother. The personal comments do not help us achieve that potential.

This should be an interesting thread if we let it develop as a source of information on how makers and collectors deal with pricing.

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 25 October 1999).]
 
Tom, with respect, I don't think you were being entirely fair to what Les said. I thought he said that a maker should give due value to his own time and materials and not let a buyer haggle him down or tell him what he's worth. That's the opposite of what you were suggesting he said, I think. I've heard it complained that some makers don't charge enough for their knives, as evidenced by the multi-year waits for their work. That's not inconsistent with suggesting that some craftsmen and artisits can be lousy judges of what their time and work are really worth. Last time I looked, the cost of buying from the better dealers, like Les, was about the same as buying from the maker, without the sometimes incredible wait. I can't comment on the discount point, but I don't see the point in getting personal.
Maybe I'm a sucker, but I seldom haggle much with a maker over price. If the price is out of line, there are subtler ways to make that known. The ultimate way is to buy something else. I'm in this for the long haul, I hope, and things do tend to balance out over time. I've been around long enough to see that process at work. Most of the makers I deal with are very fair, or they try to be, anyway. Everyone has ups and downs. Dealers are sometimes a different story. I can't tell you whether the makers are asked to give too deep a discount to dealers in return for the exposure and volume etc.; I ain't qualified to give an opinion on that one. I can say that the better dealers are very fair to collectors. I hope it's not at the makers' expense. However, some dealers must think that collectors have never dealt directly with a maker, have never been to a show and don't have a computer - their prices are that far out of line. It's an insult to the intelligence. Those guys aren't worth talking to, let alone haggling with.
In the end it has to boil down to supply and demand: when I buy, I compare what I'm buying to the price of what else I could buy [or order] for the money, giving weight to waiting time and what I need [or want]etc. Makers have to look around at their peers'/competitors' prices too, giving due regard to cash flow and goodwill. It's a judgement call, as in any business. Are makers good at it? Are dealers better at it? Is there a real problem between the two, [actual identities being completely beside the point]? I don't know. But I'd be surprised and shocked if the better dealers didn't help makers in setting prices fairly and in promoting their work.
 
What the...? By the time I posted my reply, the post I was replying to vanished. I know, I know: 1)by the time I finished my long-winded post most of the Rockies eroded away and 2) the edit was much more concise and intelligent than my reply. Well, I ain't deleting my reply; that post might reappear. I'll just be briefer from now on.
 
Usualy I say sure if you want to be a dealer I will sell you 5 at a 25% discount but you must take 5 and you must pay cash , usualy they say no thank you and I say have a nice day if you undercut your prices to sale in volume it is one thing but if you undercut the last customer and they find out chances are they wont be back and they will tell everyone they know and pretty soon no one will buy from you
 
Sorry HGK the posts had nothing to offer on the subject.

As far as I am concerned going back and forth on the price of a factory knife is one thing; doing so on a custom knife from a maker is another. I feel I would be insulting someones work and creativity. If the price is out of line in my opinion I might ask if that is the best that can be done, but that is as far as I will take it. As collectors it is important for us to understand what goes into making a knife and that the maker needs to be compensated for the time as well as the talent that it took to make the knife. Even when a knife is made to order I feel it is important that the collector makes sure that the maker has been compensated fairly by sitting down after delivery and paying for all those extra touches that most makers perform that may not have been a part of the original estimate. At the same time we need to be knowledgeable as to what a fair price is and how much demand exists for the makers work. Just as a collector can move on to another table, some makers can move on to another customer. As Les pointed out and Tom alluded to I have found it is not worth spending a lot of time with someone trying to beat you out of a few bucks of a knife you have priced fairly.

As far as being on the other side of the table I agree with Tom. I have found that it is best to set a price that is fair to me, my customer, and the original makers reputation and stick to it.

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 25 October 1999).]
 
IMO, it depends on how long the maker has been around. I think it is going too far to say that a maker should NEVER haggle on his prices.

Supply and demand obviously control everything. A maker that is asking too much for his knives, will hopefully realize it, through lack of sales, and stop overpricing. I would never try to haggle with a reputable maker. He knows what he can get for a knife, and his work is well established. The market has already set the price for his knives.

A maker does not decide what his time is worth - the consumer decides it for him.

Marco
 
Well. The last order I placed with a maker was for three knives at a total price equal to what I bought my 4th car for (and it was as expensive as the prior 3 combined). He made a fair offer and I said yes. Now I am selling practically every knife I have to pay for it. On the other hand, when an individual is reselling his production or custom knife I have no qualms at making him an offer below his asking price. I get just as many " No thanks" response as I do "ok,let's talk".... One offer to sell one knife lead to a wild 6 kife trade that I still don't know if I came out ahead or behind as I am trying to sell everything I traded for... and will never know what I could have gotten selling the others (although the market is soft for halo IIs now...)...

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Dances with lemmings

 
Tbark has touched on a good point. A legitmate dealer should be willing to buy multiple knives from a particular maker.

However, don't just dismiss a potential dealer based on their wallet. Building a long term relation with a dealer can be very profitable for both parties.

One of the things happening in corporate america right now is what's called "partnering". The Japanese have been doing it for years. The basic idea is that you plan long term working with specific people or companies, to the point that they are specifically mentioned in a business/marketing plans.

Contrary to what some think. The discount given to legitimate dealers is not just because they have some money. You should pick dealers because of their ability to promote your knives in a market(s) that you cannot get to. Wether it is a web site, or shows that they attend in a part of the country you can't get to. Part of the discount you give is returned to you as not having the expenses of traveling to that show.

Also, keep in mind, that every knife a dealer sells is two for you. The one he bought initially and the one he re-orders after the first one sells.

Pricing is always a tough decision. But the more knife for the money you provide, the more knives you will sell.

Les
 
As an old dog that has been buying and selling things for half a century, I have found what works best for me is to turn down the walk up that wants to haggle. The legit dealer is another story, if he is trustworthy then negotiate and all gain. If he is a fly by nite, don't even answer him, just smile and show him your hearing aid.

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old pete
 
Well you got a lot of interesting replies to your question Rene. Some of it was good and some of it was downright stupid.
As person that works in the retail business
you know all too well what dealing with the public is like, you get all kinds. If they don't buy from you they'll buy from the store down the street or the knife table in the next row. ALL potential customers are valuable. If a person asks if you'll take less, a simple yes or no will suffice. Thinking that person isn't worth the trouble
and telling him to move along to the next table would be idiotic for you as a business man. Saying no on a lower price doesn't mean he isn't going to buy the knife. Most people are on some sort of budget at a knife show. Is it unusual to see a person borrow money from a companion, go and plead with the wife,run out to the atm, walk around and decide to pull out the plastic when that swore they wouldn't? The fact is that people often come back and buy that knife even if it means them biting the bullet. Only a moron would be arrogant to a potential customer and the idea of shooting a silly higher price to a person that asks about a lower price turning him off to your knives possibly forever is absolutely foolish. That person may very well be attending the same shows as you for the next 20 years and if it was me I wouldn't want him to be skipping a stop at my table for 20 years because of something foolish I said to him a long time ago.
I don't believe in the old line that the customer is always right but the customer is what we all depend on to make a living and the customer is what is important and no matter how much of a pain in the ass they might be a smart business man learns how to deal with them properly.
 
Interesting discussion! As a customer, I must confess I'm not sure I've ever run into an industry before where making a counter-offer is considered an insult or brands a customer as not worth the time.

I gotta be honest, I know some knifemakers are uncomfortable with getting counter-offers, but in general I make counteroffers freely, unless I happen to know that this particular maker doesn't haggle. I offer what I feel a knife is worth to me. Sometimes that means I make a counteroffer, sometimes it doesn't. If the maker is not well-known, I'm more inclined to counteroffer. If the show is particularly slow, I'm more inclined to counteroffer. If I like the knife but it doesn't grab me and scream "buy me!", I'm more likely to make a counteroffer.

If I never made counter-offers, there's a bunch of knives I would never have bought. It's really worked out well for me -- and, I hope, for the makers who needed those sales. Sometimes, I make a counteroffer, it is not accepted, and after some consideration I buy the knife anyway at asking price. I'm not insulted when a maker turns it down.

One thing for sure, my counteroffer is what a knife is worth to me, not an insult, not a comment on the maker's skill, nor anything else. It's okay for a maker to decide he's never going to haggle, but if he thinks haggling is an insult or unethical, he needs to realize he's in a retail industry, and, as they say, "get over it". Making counteroffers isn't insulting, it's simply smart shopping.

Joe
 
What gets me is when someone you know wants one of your blades, and says, well, you can always make another one, can't you.

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"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"
 
I would rather discount a price to the guy/ or girl, that comes by the table 4 times to pick up the same knife. Than to someone that just picks up a peice of work off of a table and blatently tells you that it is not worth what you are asking.

Do you all consider discounts to regular customers?

Would you give someone a discount if they told you they loved the knife but were $20 short in their budget?

I think you have to consider each person seperately, I think if they see the value and your knives are priced fairly there is no reason to haggle. But there are always people who you can tell would really like the knife but cannot afford your asking price.

Just some thoughts, Alan...

 
I have a couple of thoughts on this,

If I put a price on a knife, it's a fair representation of materials + time at what I consider a reasonable rate. If I let a knife go for less than this, I am either taking a loss or I am admitting I have "jacked up" my price in preparation for haggling. I won't do the latter because then I'd be suckering anyone who didn't haggle.

As for the former, yes, I will occaisionally sell "at a loss" if I am strapped for cash, given that-
A) the time and money in the knife is in the past, while the offer is here and now (NOTE BAD BUSINESS STRATEGY!)
B) the person really seems to want the knife and/or I like them or forsee future business with them.

Basically, what it comes down to is I like to set people up with knives. If they really want something, I want them to have it and I'm flexible. This is precisely why I'm looking for a "real" job - so I can continue to do this and not worry about what a terrible way it is to run a business. Relying on knives for your income can severely limit your freedom to make and distribute them as you please.

I also feel that my final goal is that everyone be happy and feel that they got more than they paid for. Someone who haggles over the price will rarely feel this way, no matter how low you go.

Seems to me there's a difference here between haggling because you enjoy it and haggling because you want something but simply can't afford it.

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-Corduroy
"Why else would a bear want a pocket?"

Little Bear Knives
Drew Gleason:
adg@student.umass.edu
 
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