Double Edged Knives in California

V

Vigilance Trading

Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
102
Can anyone provide information regarding Double Edged Knives in California? I know that there are dive knives being sold in California with double edges and are being worn by divers in California. What does the California law state in regards to owning, wearing, and sales of double edged knives? Happy New Year!
 
There are no state laws in California that prohibit the sale, purchase, possession, or OPEN CARRY of double-edged fixed-blades. It is illegal to carry them concealed.

There are also no state laws prohibiting the sale, purchase, possession, or carry (open or concealed) of double-edged folding knives. However it is illegal to carry any folding knife concealed with the blade in the open position.

And in all of my research I have never found any local laws (city, county) in CA that prohibit the sale, purchase, possession, or carry of double-edged knives.

I've lived in CA for the past 43 years and I have read the CA penal code knife statutes so many times that I almost know them by heart. I also have a very good criminal defense attorney who advises me on such matters.
 
killgar said:
There are no state laws in California that prohibit the sale, purchase, possession, or OPEN CARRY of double-edged fixed-blades. It is illegal to carry them concealed.

There are also no state laws prohibiting the sale, purchase, possession, or carry (open or concealed) of double-edged folding knives. However it is illegal to carry any folding knife concealed with the blade in the open position.

And in all of my research I have never found any local laws (city, county) in CA that prohibit the sale, purchase, possession, or carry of double-edged knives.

I've lived in CA for the past 43 years and I have read the CA penal code knife statutes so many times that I almost know them by heart. I also have a very good criminal defense attorney who advises me on such matters.
Click to expand...


Wow! I actually thought it was the complete opposite.:eek:
 
Joe Duder said:
Wow! I actually thought it was the complete opposite.:eek:
Click to expand...
California actually has some very permissive knife laws. It is pretty surprising considering how restrictive our gun laws are. But that's the way it is. We just got lucky when it comes to knives.

No length limit on blades in CA state law either :) .
 
killgar said:
There are no state laws in California that prohibit the sale, purchase, possession, or OPEN CARRY of double-edged fixed-blades. It is illegal to carry them concealed.
Click to expand...

I have looked through the Penal Code for a definition of concealed, knowing full well that for the sake of law, regular words may have special definitions. I have not found one. so the question that decides whether one becomes a felon or not is: if a knife is partially concealed, is it considered to be concealed?

I would make the argument that if the handle of the knife is visible then the knife is not concealed, but what if it's visible but you'd have to look carefully? i.e. carrying a black knife in a black boot wearing black pants where the handle is visible but could be easily confused as part of the boot... would that be concealed? sort of hidden in plain sight?

how does this work?
 
Per the above, the only illegal folder reference is to

carrying AN OPEN FOLDER CONCEALED

So it doesn't matter if the folder is concealed or not if it is closed. If it is open and in your hand, it is not concealed.

Now the only reason someone would want to carry a folding knife in the open position concealed would be to have the near equivalent of a fixed blade knife and have it concealed. And since the concealed carry of a fixed blade is illegal, the legislature passed that part to prevent someone from carrying a 'like a fixed blade' knife by claiming it was just a folding knife that happened to be open while concealed. A case of a law being passed to cover a loophole some jack-leg sea-lawyer tried to use to get around the concealed carry of a fixed blade.
 
ekkis said:
I have looked through the Penal Code for a definition of concealed, knowing full well that for the sake of law, regular words may have special definitions. I have not found one. so the question that decides whether one becomes a felon or not is: if a knife is partially concealed, is it considered to be concealed?

I would make the argument that if the handle of the knife is visible then the knife is not concealed, but what if it's visible but you'd have to look carefully? i.e. carrying a black knife in a black boot wearing black pants where the handle is visible but could be easily confused as part of the boot... would that be concealed? sort of hidden in plain sight?

how does this work?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately it is true that California law does not specify in detail what constitutes a "concealed" fixed-blade. As a result, the decision as to whether or not a fixed-blade is concealed will be determined by (a)the cop on the street. (b)the prosecutor of the case if you get arrested. And (c)the jury if the case goes to trial.

I carry a fixed-blade openly in San Diego, have done so for many years. My criminal attorney has told me that as long as the knife can be "reasonably" recognized as a knife, and as long as there was no "intent" on my part to conceal the knife, then the knife isn't "concealed" and he would have no worries about fighting any concealed weapon charge in court if it came to that (providing the cop doesn't commit perjury and lies about how the knife was being carried. but that's always a risk if the cop is dishonest).

My lawyer has told me that whether or not a cop on the street can EASILY see my fixed-blade doesn't matter (black knife worn against black clothing, knife carried at night, knife momentarily covered by an item I may be carrying, etc). What matters is how the knife is actually being carried. As long as it can be demonstrated to a jury that I was not intentionally trying to hide the knife, my attorney is confidant that charges would either be dropped, or that I would be acquitted.

As far as the cops go, it's a crap-shoot. Every cop is different, some are more honest than others, some are very cool, and some can be major a-holes. Here is a short story of an encounter I had with a cop- I was carrying a fixed-blade (Entrek Cobra) in a back-pocket sheath with just the handle being visible. The bottom of my jacket momentarily covered the handle. The cops saw this and proceeded to give me a friendly warning regarding the fact that the moment my jacket covered the knife that it technically became "concealed" under the law. He suggested I adjust my jacket accordingly, I did, and after thanking him we went our separate ways (very cool cop). The cop had no problem with the fact that only the handle of the knife was visible. But like I said, every cop is different.

My advise is- make an effort to carry any fixed-blade in a manner that it can be clearly seen by a cop. Awhile back I stopped carrying in a back-pocket sheath and started carrying my fixed-blade from a sheath hanging from my belt completely in plain view. One reason being that I wanted to give any cops the least opportunity to try and screw me by claiming my knife was concealed. Of course my fixed-blade is all black (handle, blade, sheath,) and I wear all black, but I don't worry about that.
 
Last edited:
MattinLA said:
Does that include folders? Plus if my pocket clip can be seen that means its not concealed, correct?

Thanks
Click to expand...
There is no length limit on manually opening folders in California state law as far as public carry goes. There is a length limit on folders carried on school property though (I forget what the limit is at the moment, I think it's 2.5 inches if I recall correctly).

Under CA state law, switchblades and butterfly knives have a length limit of 2 inches (I mention this because technically they are both "folders"). Such knives need to have a blade UNDER 2 inches to be legally carried.

Under CA state law, it is legal to carry any size of manually opening folding knife openly or concealed. So under state law it doesn't matter if the pocket clip is visible or not. Clip visible or not, under state law the knife is legal.

However, some cities/counties in CA have their own knife laws that override state law. For example- in Los Angeles there is a length limit on OPENLY carried knives (blades must be under 3inches), but no length limit on concealed folders (odd but true). In Los Angeles, if a cop stopped you and found a folder clipped in your pocket with a blade 3 inches or longer, he might decide that the knife violates the open carry length limit because of the visible pocket clip (the visibility of the clip making it an "openly carried" knife). And that decision might hold up in court.
 
Last edited:
i've been told by a few people in law enforcement that some part of the fixed blade has to be clearly visible for it to be legal. this leaves a lot of interpretation of "clearly visible".
 
Just be aware that carry on your belt may be open carry, but put a shirt or jacket on that covers it, even if the shirt is open, may make it concealed.
 
killgar said:
Unfortunately it is true that California law does not specify in detail what constitutes a "concealed" fixed-blade
Click to expand...

I guess the thing that irks me is that from the perspective of legal construction, if a law does not specifically define a term, the term's plain-language definition applies. in English, a thing is concealed when it is not visible. if any part of it is visible then it's not concealed because concealment requires that no part of a thing be visible.

the law doesn't say partially concealed. it says concealed. so where does this apparatus of parasites get off "interpreting" in some bizarre manner what is plain to the average man on the street?

I know I'm ranting and that it won't change anything... but what are message boards for if not to rant? :)
 
ekkis said:
I guess the thing that irks me is that from the perspective of legal construction, if a law does not specifically define a term, the term's plain-language definition applies. in English, a thing is concealed when it is not visible. if any part of it is visible then it's not concealed because concealment requires that no part of a thing be visible.

the law doesn't say partially concealed. it says concealed. so where does this apparatus of parasites get off "interpreting" in some bizarre manner what is plain to the average man on the street?

I know I'm ranting and that it won't change anything... but what are message boards for if not to rant? :)
Click to expand...
Believe me, I understand your frustration regarding the justice system. I was once unjustly arrested and charged with a crime I didn't commit, due in part to the perjury of a detective. At the time, being ignorant of the workings of the criminal justice system, it was easy for my attorney to convince me that pleading guilty and taking a plea bargain was my best chance to avoid a long prison sentence. I followed his lousy advice, and ended up going to prison anyways. Lots of hard lessons learned during that experience regarding the law, the criminal justice system, and the indifference, ruthlessness, and corruption of some of the people who work in that system (and that includes some defense attorneys). Brother, you don't even want to get me started on ranting about the criminal justice system, we could be here all week ;).

My main motivation for posting in this subforum is to try and help people avoid learning about the criminal justice system the way I did, the hard way.
 
killgar said:
California actually has some very permissive knife laws. It is pretty surprising considering how restrictive our gun laws are. But that's the way it is. We just got lucky when it comes to knives.

No length limit on blades in CA state law either :) .
Click to expand...

You need to also be aware that there is no preemption law in CA. That is to say, while the state knife laws may seem permissive, there is nothing stoping local municipalities from enacting stricter knife laws. For instance, I'm pretty sure the restrictions in LA county are different than the statewide ones.

It's not just CA. If you step inside the 5 boroughs of NYC, you MUST conceal your knife in order for it to be legal. Expose a clip and you're in trouble. Opposite outside of the city. That's why the preemption laws that KnifeRights has been fighting for are so important.
 
DrFish said:
You need to also be aware that there is no preemption law in CA. That is to say, while the state knife laws may seem permissive, there is nothing stoping local municipalities from enacting stricter knife laws. For instance, I'm pretty sure the restrictions in LA county are different than the statewide ones.
Click to expand...
You are quite correct. Fortunately for me I live in San Diego county, and none of the local municipalities in San Diego have any knife ordinances that preempt state law. State law rules down here.

I rarely travel out of San Diego. On a few occasions I headed up to LA for work related reasons, but before I went I had my current attorney school me in LA's knife laws, which are more restrictive than state law in some ways. But since I was there for work related purposes, and could prove it, those local restrictions didn't apply to me because there is a specific exemption in LA's knife laws for people carrying knives for work.
 
killgar said:
There is no length limit on manually opening folders in California state law as far as public carry goes. There is a length limit on folders carried on school property though (I forget what the limit is at the moment, I think it's 2.5 inches if I recall correctly).

Under CA state law, switchblades and butterfly knives have a length limit of 2 inches (I mention this because technically they are both "folders"). Such knives need to have a blade UNDER 2 inches to be legally carried.

Under CA state law, it is legal to carry any size of manually opening folding knife openly or concealed. So under state law it doesn't matter if the pocket clip is visible or not. Clip visible or not, under state law the knife is legal.

However, some cities/counties in CA have their own knife laws that override state law. For example- in Los Angeles there is a length limit on OPENLY carried knives (blades must be under 3.5 inches), but no length limit on concealed folders (odd but true). In Los Angeles, if a cop stopped you and found a folder clipped in your pocket with a blade 3.5 inches or longer, he might decide that the knife violates the open carry length limit because of the visible pocket clip (the visibility of the clip making it an "openly carried" knife). And that decision might hold up in court.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the excellent reply!
 
killgar said:
At the time, being ignorant of the workings of the criminal justice system, it was easy for my attorney to convince me that pleading guilty and taking a plea bargain was my best chance to avoid a long prison sentence. I followed his lousy advice, and ended up going to prison anyways.
Click to expand...

I feel for you mate. I've been trampled by that machinery too. thank you for trying to help others
 
Here is a reference guide to Los Angeles knife law. People can review these laws online at their own lesiure-

Los Angeles Municipal Codes-
Section 55.10 refers to knife carry.
55.10 a. defines what the municipality of LA considers to be a "knife".
55.10 b. explains the prohibitions on knife carry in the municipality of LA.
55.10 c. explains the exemptions to the prohibitions in 55.10 b.

Los Angeles County Penal Code-
13.62.010 defines what the county of LA considers to be a "knife".
13.62.020 explains the prohibitions of knife carry in the county of LA.
13.62.030 explains the exemptions to the prohibitions in 13.62.020.
13.62.040 explains the penalties for violating the prohibitions in 13.62.020.

The LA municipal code and the LA county code are virtually identical with no meaningful difference. They both have the same definitions of what a "knife" is, the same prohibitions, and the same exemptions.

The following is an explanation of the exemptions as explained to me by my attorney. Bear in mind that although my attorney believes in the free exercising of ones legal right to carry a knife, he also believes in erring on the side of caution. So his advice to me is not based on the belief that most cops are "cool" and will let a person slide. Instead, his advice is based on the possibility of a cop interpreting the law in a way that is least favorable to a person carrying a knife.

Work Related Purposes Exemption- If you are carrying a knife for work-related purposes, and can prove it, then it is permissible to openly carry a knife, fixed-blade or folder, with a blade 3 inches or longer in Los Angeles.

However, consider the following points-

Point 1. It's not enough to just say that you are carrying the knife "for work", like I said, you need to be able to prove it, if not right there on the street to a cop, then at least in court if you are arrested. Basically, in order for the knife to be a legitimate exemption to the length limit, you need to either be currently engaged in your job, recently engaged in your job, or directly on your way to your job, while you are carrying the knife. If your shift ended an hour ago, or if it's your day off from work, or if you live outside of LA and you are just visiting LA on vacation, don't expect the cops, or the courts, to buy your story that you were carrying the knife "for work". There needs to be a reasonable connection between your work, and your reason for carrying the knife.

Point 2. Your "work-related" reason for carrying the knife needs to reasonably match your job. For example- if you work in an office and sit at a computer all day, don't expect the cops or courts to believe that you needed to carry a big fixed-blade "for work". Again, there needs to be a reasonable connection between your work and the knife.

Recreational Purposes Exemption- If you are carrying a knife for recreational purposes, and can prove it, then it is permissible to openly carry a knife, fixed-blade or folder, with a blade 3 inches or longer in Los Angeles.

But once again, consider the following points-

Point 1. It's not enough just to say that you are carrying the knife for "recreational purposes". You need to either be actively engaged in, or on your way to, a recreational activity that might reasonably require the use of a knife with a blade 3 inches or longer. Like for example- fishing, camping, outdoor cooking, and similar activities.

Point 2. You need to be able to prove in some way that you were carrying the knife for "recreational purposes" (like having fishing/camping gear in your car). If for example you tell a cop that you were on your way to go fishing, but you have no fishing gear, and you can't name any fishing spots in LA, the cop will suspect that you are lying. Never underestimate a cops ability to detect a lie, because they have a lot of experience being lied to. And if they catch you lying, they might look for any lawful reason to arrest you (like openly carrying a knife longer than the legal limit).

Don't just expect the cops or courts to believe you, because they don't have to. And since prosecutors have their own agendas, they may very well choose not to believe you. Obey the letter of the law as best you can, cover your ass, and hopefully you will avoid trouble, or at the very least, increase your chances of beating any charges.

There is also an exemption in LA law regarding carrying a knife for "religious purposes", but since that never applied to me my attorney didn't feel it was necessary to explain it to me.

And of course, as always, my advice to people is- when in doubt about the law, consult a criminal defense attorney. You always take your chances when you use an internet forum as a source of legal information.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top