Dredging Up Handle Wood

P.S.
Shops that make vehicle leaf-springs have remnants,"drops",that they'd most likely sell you very reasonably(if not just gift it to you,knowing what a cool project you need it for).
Any chunk of steel that still retains it's spec-sheet is what it's all about.KNOWN quantity,particularly once it comes down to heat-treating it.
And 5160,+ proper HT, would indeed make a very decent edge material.
 
jake pogg said:
Forging qualifies only too well as a "craftsmanship of risk",it don't need help in that regard...:(
Click to expand...
Yes, it's why any pragmatic smid would not greet such a prospect with much enthusiasm and as I wrote, this is an alternative to the preferred option of using newly purchased pure iron.The best I can hope for is that this layering is present and becomes apparent which can make for a nice appearance in the initial stages since there will be no etching involved.
jake pogg said:
Btw,there was a tragedy in Netherlands this morning,in Utrecht,i don't know how close you are to there,but i hope all's well with you and yours...
Click to expand...
Yes, I followed the news mainly because my wife was, unusually, in Utrecht today but's now home and all's well. Thanks for your well wishes Jake.
 
Well, this inclusion of slag in the old iron does have at least one inherent value used in combination with a high carbon content edge steel. When sharpening, in any case using water stones, the slag, being of a different hardness, helps to open the surface of the stone, create a slurry and quickly expose fresh aggregate, enhancing the sharpening qualities of the stone.
 
Water stones do that anyway due to their low bond strength, and it'd be unusual for the iron to be contacting the stone in most cases, eh?
 
Ernest DuBois said:
the slag, being of a different hardness, helps to open the surface of the stone, create a slurry and quickly expose fresh aggregate, enhancing the sharpening qualities of the stone.
Click to expand...

That's a neat thing to know,thanks.

As to the non-homogeneity being visible with the naked eye in a non-ground/non-etched state,after forging...I really don't know,but have doubts...

Unfortunately,the dirtier,the more contaminated WI is with slag inclusions the prettier it looks(when finished in whatever manner).
It goes against it's mechanical properties,it's soundness,alas.
Very refined WI(in US,in the past,up to 5 degrees of refinement were specified by industry) has inclusions that are very thin,very parallel,and that makes the material very bland in appearance.
Thus the wagon tire steel is so beloved of the knifemaking folk,it was usually very dirty and the cilicate "dirt" very randomly distributed.
 
Also,i believe that some old "buggy axles and leafsprings"-type material was mentioned above.

One's best to carefully differentiate between the old Structural steel(aka Wrought iron),and the Temperable steel of yore,such was used in old springs.
That latter,known as "sheer steel",was made by carburating(imparting C to) billets of WI,and then welding them together;whereby C further distributed itself by diffusion.
Such material also etches into a very striking visually surface,it actually has an extra color band,containing iron of varying C content,and slag as well.
But it is quite different from WI,being hardenable,and so not as suitable for forging the body of an axe from.
(sorry to get all longwinded)
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Water stones do that anyway due to their low bond strength, and it'd be unusual for the iron to be contacting the stone in most cases, eh?
Click to expand...
Right, that is a characteristic of water stones which the slag of the iron component enhances. Whether or not the iron comes into play when sharpening depends on the composition at the bevel
p6260113.jpg
dscf3737.jpg
p8310655.jpg

jake pogg said:
As to the non-homogeneity being visible with the naked eye in a non-ground/non-etched state,after forging...I really don't know,but have doubts...
Click to expand...
Oh, it's visible, very subtle and not apparent to the casual observer but when pointed out, a revelation. In my very poor photo maybe you can see a slight ripple effect out through the center towards the green reflection, beneath the scratches. It's like spotting fish.
p8091861.jpg

here is the shot for perspective
cropped-p8091858.jpg
 
Thanks for the photos.
Yes,though it's hard to see,but i do know it's visible sometimes(and love the way it looks).
The axe in photos above has been ground,and on an exposed steel surface slag inclusions are a bit easier to see;also some etching occurs naturally,from acidity in air,moisture,finger-oil,et c.,which also helps.
So yes,very possibly that chain-link may have beautiful patterns inside...I hope so!

(It's kinda funny that when people collect those often super-old/super-expensive katana swords,and then under specially-directed light,using gloves et c. gaze for hours into the intricacies of the patterns in steel,that much of what they're looking at are the specs of contaminants in the steel obtained in a rather crude,hand-made fashion....But what makes it especially gazeable is the state of polish...into tens of thousands grit...Then one can see All kinds of coolest stuff...)
 
Yes I take your point, without some grinding and polishing etc you'd surely miss it altogether on this axe of mine. I have my suspicion though that the one condition has led to that other, (in'resting iron ought now to have a bit of polishing, or so the smid may have thought to himself as I imagine it) . Well, I make no effort to preserve its visibility so it continually diminishes since the day the smid delivered the re-steeled axe, but I am happy just knowing it's there and maybe, someday, someone will make a rediscovery. It's a gift I've gotten a time or two myself, you know.
 
Yes,and that is a very good point-just knowing that it's there,how special that steel is,is enough at times...
Here's an image you may find interesting.It illustrates a rape of an artefact(about 10th c.AD) by a collector precisely for the pattern.
https://imgur.com/a/Q4TjAdS
The shades of grey indicate the variable C content,while black "cracks" are slag.
In the middle of the blade you can see how an inclusion goes across the blade,about half-way.That is a problem with overly-dirty WI.*That spot on that axe is actually significantly impaired...(not that it kept it from lasting a 1000+/- years:)

* the material is a poorly refined "bloomery" iron
 
Color me skeptical about slag inclusions in wrought iron at all enhancing the cutting qualities of water stones. I can't think of any mechanism that would produce that effect. If anything, the large surface area of those bevels would reduce pressure on the stone, causing it to be less prone to releasing grain. The slag inclusions are typically Fe2SiO4 (fayalite) and FeO, and not at all hard compared to the aluminum oxide that most water stones are made of. Al2O3 has a Vickers hardness (HV) of about 2500 whereas FeO is 460 HV and Fe2SiO4 is 357 HV. Fully hardened steel is approximately 900 HV, for reference, and pure martensite caps out at around 1000 HV.
 
Oh, I'm not going on and on about such a water stone at all, which personally I use only from time to time, and it's true, these stones you have are much less responsive, rather Japanese water stones both artificial and natural which are composed of clay aggregate, (what's that, silicate or something, I don't know, didn't ever even look it up, just something that cuts) and binder and not this artificial oxide bound together much more solidly, really two different mechanisms which I probably should have distinguished to avoid the confusion. The bimetal composition which includes some degree if impurity but not necessarily, produces an obvious drag or resistance to pressure, in fact it discourages or regulates over pressuring I find when going at it at the bench, ( see togitogi in the sharpening section), which opens up the surface on the stones. The Japanese stones are not only particularly suited to this composition, but conceived/chosen, (in the case of natural stones) with this condition as an assumption. The trade-off of course in using these stones with axes, explaining why perhaps it's not so common, while at the same time being subject to personal preference, is the incredible wear to the stones, but they do cut noticeably faster.
 
Last edited:
jake pogg said:
Yes,and that is a very good point-just knowing that it's there,how special that steel is,is enough at times...
Here's an image you may find interesting.It illustrates a rape of an artefact(about 10th c.AD) by a collector precisely for the pattern.
https://imgur.com/a/Q4TjAdS
The shades of grey indicate the variable C content,while black "cracks" are slag.
In the middle of the blade you can see how an inclusion goes across the blade,about half-way.That is a problem with overly-dirty WI.*That spot on that axe is actually significantly impaired...(not that it kept it from lasting a 1000+/- years:)

* the material is a poorly refined "bloomery" iron
Click to expand...
Jake, how do you distinguish that from damascus?
 
Ernest DuBois said:
Jake, how do you distinguish that from damascus?
Click to expand...
Well,Sir,that can be a complex question...The simplest answer will be you don't.

"Damascus",today,most often means a mechanical laminate,assorted parts being welded together by diffusion welding.
(That is to avoid confusion and separate this from that other material sometimes still called "damascus"(after a Syrian port from where much of it was imported and/or made),the Crucible stuff,having been brought up clear to liquidus,and so bonded in a different manner).

A fresh bloom contains iron with different Carbon content.(Most people differentiated between Low,Medium,and High;it's possible to differentiate them visually,even).
In the process called "refinement" a bloom,crudely speaking,is kneaded,and welded,many times,literally refining the thickness of inclusions and the distribution of carbon in material.
So it is in fact a mechanical laminate,same as "damascus".
Mechanically,an axe is often formed by diffusion welding also;so one may say that most old axes were "damascus" axes,it'd be metallurgically correct.
:)
The slag inclusions are of course the unbonded areas(mineral slag prevents diffusion)and so are weakening the construction.
They act a bad welds in a poorly put together axe.
But one of the virtues of forge-weld is it's huge area,usually,and so even the lousy-looking welds,contaminated over a large % of their area,can do the job,and the tool hangs together till worn out.
 
I have one axe out of Bavaria and a hundred years old or so and when the smid look over and he called it damascus, I believe in the sense you mention of mechanically formed. With my uninitiated eye though I cannot make a thing of it so must bring it back for an explanation and re-steeling, the bit as it is, not usable. Well, the two process as you lay them out, easy enough to understand.
 
This is that same axe,plain view:https://imgur.com/a/SWpzYR0

(red dotted line is the owner's interpolation of where the asymmetrical eye-weld was closed;not necessarily what happened,just an idea(most of these,"Baltic" axes were drifted,not welded)...

Yes.Exactly.The elements in a "damascus"-better term Pattern-welded composite are just that,and can be any size,large or small.
d
 
here, pgs 62-65 Granaas shows an example of pre 1855 work distinguishing the "steel" and the iron and describes well the qualities of the iron. It is interesting to read that impurities also act as a flux in the welding process.
 
Ernest DuBois said:
Oh, I'm not going on and on about such a water stone at all, which personally I use only from time to time, and it's true, these stones you have are much less responsive, rather Japanese water stones both artificial and natural which are composed of clay aggregate, (what's that, silicate or something, I don't know, didn't ever even look it up, just something that cuts) and binder and not this artificial oxide bound together much more solidly, really two different mechanisms which I probably should have distinguished to avoid the confusion. The bimetal composition which includes some degree if impurity but not necessarily, produces an obvious drag or resistance to pressure, in fact it discourages or regulates over pressuring I find when going at it at the bench, ( see togitogi in the sharpening section), which opens up the surface on the stones. The Japanese stones are not only particularly suited to this composition, but conceived/chosen, (in the case of natural stones) with this condition as an assumption. The trade-off of course in using these stones with axes, explaining why perhaps it's not so common, while at the same time being subject to personal preference, is the incredible wear to the stones, but they do cut noticeably faster.
Click to expand...

None of that is particularly accurate, and I understood what you meant. I'm not talking about hard-bond stones. I specifically said water stones and mentioned their soft bond. And artificial water stones ARE typically aluminum oxide as the abrasive. Some are silicon carbide, but comparatively few. Most water stones are either a vitrified bond ("clay bond", which is also what Western stones use--it's just there's LOTS of variables to play with there), which is the soaking type, or a magnesia bond (magnesium oxychloride cement) which is the splash-and-go type. Magnesia bonds feel very hard but break down with prolonged water contact, hence why you're told NOT to soak those, because they'd crumble apart. The reason why water stones cut quickly is simply the weakness of their bond, which allows fresh grit to be rapidly exposed. The bi-metal construction doesn't impact this in any meaningful way that I can surmise, and the texture you probably feel is the abrasive biting into the softer material more aggressively since abrasion rate scales rapidly with the difference in hardness between the abrasive and the workpiece. This is still true for natural stones, which are typically siliceous sedimentary rock, action is still fundamentally similar, though not quite identical since what binds the abrasive grains together is sort of a halfway between a vitrified and a sintered bond. It's like if you took the ingredients of a vitrified bond and then sintered them instead.
 
That is an Excellent document,thank you.
I was only familiar with it from p.51 on,the deconstruction itself.It has taught me a very great deal...
Yes,silicate slag is very sticky when hot,it coats steel surfaces keeping that ultimate enemy of a forge-weld,Oxygen,away from them...
Inside the bloomery furnace,when iron is yet being reduced into metallic form,slags begin their symbiosis with steel,determining the final outcome of the process,and informing the smelt-meister of everything he needs to know about the progress of the smelt...
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
None of that is particularly accurate, and I understood what you meant. I'm not talking about hard-bond stones. I specifically said water stones and mentioned their soft bond. And artificial water stones ARE typically aluminum oxide as the abrasive. Some are sili...
Click to expand...
Just looking at availability it's clear that on the face of it, artificial water stones come in untold variations in both bond and aggregate, not to mention production processes, all the basis for one company or the next to assert having the best stone. Something similar could be said of natural stones as well. It makes it not so interesting and in fact pointless going on and on with generalities, posting claim and counter claim in an endless exchange, when all the variables add up to an infinity of conclusions, even tough it makes for a great point of contention. Using your own terms though regarding the action of a bi-metal construction it is this feel of the abrasive biting more aggressively, enhanced by the presence of impurities, for example slag, and in combination with the high carbon content edge steel, that constitutes the renewed exposure of fresh, un-abraded abrasive, and slurry, all, as you say, contingent in large part on the bonding mechanism but also the hand of the sharpener.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top