Edge holding ability on 20cv?

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Jan 6, 2011
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Ordered a factory second necker on 8/27, and the status is still processing. How long does it normally take to ship?
I'm way too excited about this knife to order and forget.
 
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My factory second 4.1 didn't ship for about 6-8 weeks after I ordered it.
That was back at the start of summer, and they may be caught up, or made progress on their move, or in some way be in a better position to fulfill orders now, so it may ship out a lot sooner.
But it could be as long as 8 weeks before it gets a tracking number.
 
I know what you mean! My GSO 5.1 is en route, and I am excited as all get out!

It took mine about 30 days to ship. They say it takes 5-15 days on the "complete order" page. I don't mind it taking a bit longer though, especially for what I'm getting (quality-wise).

To put it in perspective, I have a custom knife on order, and the wait time is 9 months.
 
They have to sharpen each knife before being sent out. It causes a backup
 
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I know what you mean! My GSO 5.1 is en route, and I am excited as all get out!

It took mine about 30 days to ship. They say it takes 5-15 days on the "complete order" page. I don't mind it taking a bit longer though, especially for what I'm getting (quality-wise).

To put it in perspective, I have a custom knife on order, and the wait time is 9 months.

Keep in mind, these are "business days" so don't count any weekends or holidays since you placed your order.
Even then, it's optimistic :p
 
They have to sharpen each knife before being sent out. It causes a backup

Ah, didn't know this one.

Thanks for the replies guys, I'll have to do my best to forget that I placed an order and have a nice surprise when it comes in.
 
Awesome! Let's see some photos! I've got two o the older M390 styles, so curious to hear how the new 20CV ones hold up
 
Sure thing.
15233860140_588cd23c3a_b.jpg


Decided to go ahead and make the lanyard that is on the website. Might take it off at some point and see about making something random without the instruction.
 
Impressions.
Arrived about as Sharp as a 3 month old razor. I can shave with it, I wouldn't want to.

Edge of a victorinox alox bantam held up better than the necker when cutting 14 gauge copper wire.
I'm confused. I was under the impression that 20cv steel was suppsed to be a pain to sharpen, and hold its edge well. The edge deformed and couldn't cut paper after cutting 14 gauge copper wire, and was sharpened back to shaving sharp in 7 or so minutes, well below my average. Basically easier to sharpen than my vic bantam, and dulls faster. Granted, it was very thick copper wire, and so I didn't expect the knife to stay sharp. It was a cut out curiosity.
I used both knives once on the copper wire.
 
Impressions.
Arrived about as Sharp as a 3 month old razor. I can shave with it, I wouldn't want to.

Edge of a victorinox alox bantam held up better than the necker when cutting 14 gauge copper wire.
I'm confused. I was under the impression that 20cv steel was suppsed to be a pain to sharpen, and hold its edge well. The edge deformed and couldn't cut paper after cutting 14 gauge copper wire, and was sharpened back to shaving sharp in 7 or so minutes, well below my average. Basically easier to sharpen than my vic bantam, and dulls faster. Granted, it was very thick copper wire, and so I didn't expect the knife to stay sharp. It was a cut out curiosity.
I used both knives once on the copper wire.

Were they both sharpened to the same angle?

I think the edge retention when cutting harder objects is somewhat affected by edge geometry.

If one knife's edge is 25 degrees inclusive and the other is 40 degrees inclusive, the 40 will handle harder materials better in most cases.

This is why most people don't put a 20 degree inclusive angle on an axe; it is meant to hit/cut hard stuff, so they put a 50 degree inclusive angle on it.
 
Good point!
The necker was factory, and as far as my untrained eye can tell, the Vic Bantam was around the same, give or take a few degrees. I sharpen everything by hand so I don't really know what angle I put on my knives.
 
So I cut out some angles on a sheet of paper and matched the bevels into those grooves. The Necker looks like around 40, and the Vic Bantam looks like around 35.
 
Impressions.
Arrived about as Sharp as a 3 month old razor. I can shave with it, I wouldn't want to.

Edge of a victorinox alox bantam held up better than the necker when cutting 14 gauge copper wire.
I'm confused. I was under the impression that 20cv steel was suppsed to be a pain to sharpen, and hold its edge well. The edge deformed and couldn't cut paper after cutting 14 gauge copper wire, and was sharpened back to shaving sharp in 7 or so minutes, well below my average. Basically easier to sharpen than my vic bantam, and dulls faster. Granted, it was very thick copper wire, and so I didn't expect the knife to stay sharp. It was a cut out curiosity.
I used both knives once on the copper wire.

Guy read the email and we had a quick conversation about the situation. It is a very unusual issue so we would like to treat it the same way we would any warranty concern. We try to make the process as painless as possible. Normally, we would have you send the knife in question back to us for testing. But since this is a Necker, we will just get a new one sharpened up and send it out to you with a return shipping label so you can send the questionable one back to us.

It is definitely a rare complaint with CPM-20CV. Guy did say that he doesn't consider it hard to sharpen but he has been really impressed with the edge holding. He did run over and start cutting Romex to pieces and noticed that it did deform the 20CV edge a little bit, but it still cut really well (proof is in the instagram photo). We really can't say what may be the issue with that particular knife without having it in hand.
 
Ouch, hope that doesn't get infected or anything.

That all sounds good to me, but I can send mine back in for testing if you'd like. It is a factory second, and without it I am not knifeless. Thank you for responding.
 
Edge of a victorinox alox bantam held up better than the necker when cutting 14 gauge copper wire.
... The edge deformed and couldn't cut paper after cutting 14 gauge copper wire, and was sharpened back to shaving sharp in 7 or so minutes, well below my average. Basically easier to sharpen than my vic bantam, and dulls faster. Granted, it was very thick copper wire, and so I didn't expect the knife to stay sharp. It was a cut out curiosity.
I used both knives once on the copper wire.

Quick question: Could you perceive a difference in penetration?

I do not own the Vic, but my guess is that it is thinner behind the edge than the Necker. As such, it should penetrate through the wire more quickly/easily.

CPM-20CV is known for edge-holding in abrasive cutting, i.e. it possesses high carbide content to resist abrasive wear. For cutting hard objects, the carbides aren't really an advantage, what matters most there is matrix hardness, i.e. compression/tensile strength, and geometry. At the same geometry, a harder blade will better resist deformation (though, depending on the matrix it may chip more easily when it does start to deform).
However at the same hardness, there is a give-and-take with geometry. A thicker edge provides more material support to prevent lateral flexing and more surface to disperse compression BUT it also requires more application of force to complete a cut (i.e. reduced penetration). As a result, a thicker edge is subject to more force than a thinner edge making the same cut. The geometry (thickness) is the same close to the apex, but as the cut proceeds the thicker edge wedges into the space. As it forces its way through, the wedging-affect results in some lateral 'wobble' at the apex that can result in deformation not experienced by the thinner knife that didn't require as much force to get the shoulders through. One way to prevent this wobbling is to stabilize the edge at a MUCH thicker geometry like you see on tin-snips & wire-cutters, but then penetration is very poor indeed and requires even more force to complete the cut, hence the leverage provided by the scissors-design.

Take the following diagram for example:

Small+Blade+Geometry+EDIT2.jpg


The Necker should be close to my Izula in edge-geometry (modified), maybe ~0.025" thick at the shoulder. The SAK should be thinner than the Spydie, maybe 0.010" thick. 14-guage copper wire is 0.064" thick, that's thicker than the Necker bevel is deep but much thicker than the SAK is deep. It could be that the SAK resisted deformation because it completed the cut with greater ease.

It could also be that Guy left a burr on the edge that squashed/folded on the copper-wire, hence being so ease to restore ;)

You can see what happened to my Necker II's edge after cutting through various materials including an old tin can (skip to ~11:50 for the damage):

[video=youtube;O-z66ajgeCo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-z66ajgeCo[/video]
 
Impressions.
Arrived about as Sharp as a 3 month old razor. I can shave with it, I wouldn't want to.

Edge of a victorinox alox bantam held up better than the necker when cutting 14 gauge copper wire.
I'm confused. I was under the impression that 20cv steel was suppsed to be a pain to sharpen, and hold its edge well. The edge deformed and couldn't cut paper after cutting 14 gauge copper wire, and was sharpened back to shaving sharp in 7 or so minutes, well below my average. Basically easier to sharpen than my vic bantam, and dulls faster. Granted, it was very thick copper wire, and so I didn't expect the knife to stay sharp. It was a cut out curiosity.
I used both knives once on the copper wire.

Why cut 14 gauge wire? I don't see how it demonstrates edge retention?
 
Quick question: Could you perceive a difference in penetration?

Interesting, I didn't know any of that. I did notice the Vic went through a little easier.

I also haven't been able to find much information on what I can expect from 20cv other than, "Its just like M390!!!" so I was hoping to find a little information there, which you gave. Thank you.
 
Just got my 3.5 in 20cv and it is sharp. About as sharp as I can get a knife myself, which is better than any other factory edge I've ever had.
 
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