Edge Pro Apex 4 Vs Ruixin

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Bucketstove. gotta ask cause I'm always asking why, and ~24 is seriously different then ~34/6. Your post is new so my brain is trying understand why delta between pivot and edge angle. Part of me suspects the angle cube's gyroscope is not fully implemented (hows that for stubborn minded- gish). Is it possible to just tell us what happens when holding angle cube like it was a pin-wheel pinned to stone, in cubes center, so cube stays in vertical orientation, freely rotating left of right movement and visa-versa, the stones plane?
It's not related to the implementation of the angle cube. The reason is purely geometric. If the cube is oriented perpendicular to the cutting age (tangent line), you read the sharpening angle. If not, you read a meaningless value.
Besides the simplest cases, an angle cube rotates in all 3 axes. If we think about the angle cube in aviation terms: the pitch is used for measurement of angle; the taw is your "a pin-wheel pinned to stone" that also affects the reading and should be used for perpendicular orientation to the cutting edge; the roll - I'm not sure about other cubes... the gauge in my photos (post 51) ignores rolling.

A couple of images from my old article. The cube aligned to the guide rod measures the purple angle.
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All we need is the correct orientation of the cube - perpendicular to the cutting edge. You don't need to remove the cube from the sharpener like in bucketstove videos.
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Better yet I think I just had a good idea! How about think of this question by replacing the stone arm with a plate of glass on the sharpener that freely pivoted at the same spot. Now lay that plate of glass on the knife like your going to sharpen it. How well does it contact? I think pretty good, and no angle change as you move away from the center since it is a flat plate of glass that pivots freely in the middle. This is an interesting question since the whole point of a guided sharpener is accuracy and consistency.
If you take EZESharp, clamp one of your knives with a straight portion, and put a plate of glass, you will be very surprised. :) Your glass plate will have full contact with either rail OR knife, and 1 point of contact with the knife/rail respectively.
Your real environment is not spherical chickens in a vacuum. You've made the assumption "plane and the knife edge lines up", but you cannot do such assumptions. You can project a plane through two lines in 3D space ONLY if two lines are parallel. Who made them parallel, you? No, you did not mention anything like that. The rail and the knife will be parallel only if YOU make them parallel - by reclamping and/or rail calibration. EZESharp does not have rail calibration...
It's very naive to believe that a consumer mechanical device with all built-in tolerances and a knife with all imperfect geometry can be aligned in 3D using only human eye and human hands with such enormous precision so they will be parallel.
There are hundreds of cumulative effects that don't let edge and rail be parallel.

And again - what for? Fixed pivot units keep a constant sharpening angle for any straight portion of the blade. Mobile pivot unit on the rail promises constant sharpening angle only for one straight portion of the blade that will be parallel to the rail.
 
as long as pivot axis and the edge of the knife are perpendicular, everything in the plane is the same angle.
No offense, but this is nonsense.
There is no relation between ⟂rule ("pivot axis and the edge of the knife are perpendicular") and the sharpening angle.

Please let me repeat.
  • When you sharpen on Edge Pro Apex in a classic way (no slide guide, no magnets), you always have ⟂rule fulfilled and constant angle.
  • When you sharpen on Edge Pro Apex in a modern way (slide guide + magnets), you have ⟂rule is not fulfilled and variable angle (Karambit).
  • Correlation is not causation. Anyone thinking ⟂rule preserves angles falls to a cargo cult.
  • In classic Edge Pro Apex, ⟂rule is just a coincidence. Place the vertical rod 5" to the right.. and nothing dramatic will happen - Apex will not lose the angle preserving.
 
This thread is the greatest advertisement for freehand sharpening I've ever seen. :eek::D

Well, maybe not for everyone... :p

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Personally, I think David and Konstantin made compelling arguments in favor of the Edge Pro...and knowledge is power for those willing to take the time to understand the abilities and limitations of various systems.
 
^Yes agreed. :p In all seriousness, reading this thread made me appreciate the design of my EP Apex even more, still glad I got it. And what are the consequences of using it in "classic" (sharpen only what's perpendicular to the sharpening table and in line with it) versus "modern" (sharpen edges that are off the sharpening table, out to the sides) modes.
 
Konstantine, you beat me to pointing out that the angle cube must be perpendicular to the knife edge to mean anything. It is the only angle that should be measured. As for your response to my last post I need to point out a few errors. First a plane is best created with two lines that are perpendicular to each other, or 3 points. As for the EZESharp it is a flawed design that should never have been made for the reasons you stated, IMO. When I describe laying the glass plate on the knife edge I pointed out that it freely pivoted in all directions from a single point in the center so it would rest on the straight knife edge. Getting a plane to rest perfectly on 2 lines in space is impossible, I did say perfect, getting it to perfectly rest on 3 points is impossible to avoid, or one perfectly straight line and a point. If you keep the angle cube perpendicular to that straight line/knife edge the angle will be the same wherever you measure it on the plane, and that is all I think this question is about.

I believe I was wrong in post #61 where I said the stone holder rod needed to be perpendicular to the vertical rod, it doesn't matter. I have gone back and added this to that post.

Wow, talk about thread drift!
 
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I believe I was wrong in post #61 where I said the stone holder rod needed to be perpendicular to the vertical rod, it doesn't matter. I have gone back and added this to that post.

Thanks for clarifying that! :thumbsup: As folks have discussed these different aspects of these pivoting-arm sharpeners especially EP, I've been following through the thread discussion, putting long straight or curved blades on my Apex, demonstrating to myself the various points that that have been made. And was able to demo this too, that the angle on the portion of blade that's centered on sharpening table doesn't change even for EP settings that are higher or lower than the 21 dps where it's perpendicular. I only tested at the extremes--10 and 27--but that's enough to confirm to my satisfaction your updated point.

So yeah, some thread drift but a super interesting discussion and after all, the OP *did* ask about the EP Apex. This discussion should be very informative for anybody who's new to EP guided sharpening like me, and possibly the OP. I think the discussion yields a few useful takeaways for anybody interested in getting an Edge Pro or just getting started:

- The EP design is definitely among the top choices for a guided sharpener: because it makes it relatively easy--easier than freehand anyway :)--to keep a consistent angle while still giving you a lot of freehand control. And the other advantages not discussed a lot in this thread but that influenced me to select the EP: it has an amazing variety of 3rd party sharpening stones available, and also a lot of great online documentation and support, both from EP and other folks who use it. A potential buyer should consider all these factors before getting a guided system.
- Things to be aware of when using the EP: ways that you can get variance in your edge angle, and ways that you won't.
- How to measure your edge angle accurate: keeping angle cube perpendicular to the edge.
- Best practices for using the EP: the difference between "classic" EP sharpening (moving the knife to keep the sharpened portion of blade between the edges of sharpening table and perpendicular to it), vs "modern" EP sharpening (allowing to sharpen edges off the sharpening table, and using add-ons like the Slide guide, magnet, etc. to facilitate that). And why classic EP sharpening will help minimize edge angle variance.
 
Be careful with "classic" style as you need to keep the edge the same distance from the front of the table to maintain the same angle as you move the knife around.
 
Yep. I noticed at some of the official training videos show a classic technique for positioning the knife so that you would get basic repeatability each time you sharpen or flip the the blade back and forth to change sides. Here's a couple examples with a large chef knife, he initially lines up the tip with a corner of the table and uses that to set the blade guide, then moves knife across table while sharpening. This is 'classic' mode:

And here, he demonstrates classic even with a very large, very curved knife:

But also noticed that they advise when you work with a rigid blade, just center it on sharpening table and sharpen the parts that are off blade without moving the knife. Apparently the disadvantage of a little angle variance is less than the risk of getting variance from manually moving the knife around a lot. That sounds more like 'modern' sharpening mode to me, versus what's shown in the previous videos. Assume this technique works best with blades that are relatively short, rigid, and not too curvy.

Knife Sharpening Tips | How to Sharpen a Blade | Edge Pro Inc.
"If you are sharpening a stiff blade, put the knife across the machine and sharpen the whole blade without moving the knife. This will give you perfect tracking and a slight angle gain at the tip, which helps minimize the wide bevel that develops at the end of the knife."
 
Konstantine, you beat me to pointing out that the angle cube must be perpendicular to the knife edge to mean anything. It is the only angle that should be measured. As for your response to my last post I need to point out a few errors.
I apologize for the misunderstanding from my side. :)

D Diemaker , M maximus83 Thank you for your input.
 
Is the hapstone M3 and V7 capable of sharpening a knife like the dragonfly 2 or cold steel tuff lite?
 
Out of curiosity what is the total length of these units including the stone holder guide rode?
 
Out of curiosity what is the total length of these units including the stone holder guide rode?
The guide rod is a two piece rod assembled. It is 23 1/2 inches long assembled. The longer of the two pieces is 13 inches. The modular base is 9 1/2 inches front to back. My V8 head does not extend forward of the front edge of the base, so I think it unlikely the M3 head would either.

O.B.
 
Bucketstove. gotta ask cause I'm always asking why, and ~24 is seriously different then ~34/6. Your post is new so my brain is trying understand why delta between pivot and edge angle. Part of me suspects the angle cube's gyroscope is not fully implemented (hows that for stubborn minded- gish).
yup, its doesnt have a gyro, only has one pendulum, measuring only a single axis
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this guy graphed it, who'd have thunk it, if you spin around an axis, you get sine curve
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MPU-6050_6dof_IMU_tutorial_for_auto-leveling_quadcopters_with_Arduino_source_code-4BoIE8YQwM8-Joop_Brokking
https://www.instructables.com/Tilt-Compensated-Compass/
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thx bucketstove, had to smile at the trig, as my buddy, a brother now, is the building designer previously referenced, who patiently tutored me thru my short college trig. experience, always patient with my many questions. Those various micro pc's have amazing potential!
 
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