Emerson wave pocket opener feature (patented): Who pays royalties and who does not?

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Aug 31, 2010
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I decided I would get a "wave" knife that would not cost an arm and a leg so I went with Spyderco because they pay Emerson a royalty. I could have gone with a Kershaw/Emerson too, as Ernie Emerson gets a fee for the use of his idea with the Kershaws.

What about other companies that use the feature?

Forgive me if this has been done over and over but I checked the archives and did not find much.
 
Southern Grind also has licensed the Wave feature from Emerson.

That Bad Monkey looks very good. I just can't justify spending more than $100.00 on a blade at this point. Damn.

I was thinking about the Cold Steel AK-47. I nixed that idea for several reasons, with the non-royalty in the mix. Is it Ok that Cold Steel does not pay a fee but uses the patented dea to make beaucoup bucks?
 
That Bad Monkey looks very good. I just can't justify spending more than $100.00 on a blade at this point. Damn.

I was thinking about the Cold Steel AK-47. I nixed that idea for several reasons, with the non-royalty in the mix. Is it Ok that Cold Steel does not pay a fee but uses the patented dea to make beaucoup bucks?

You can patent a design, not a general idea. And so yes, it's okay that CS uses a pocket opening feature, since their design is different(and not as good) from Emerson's
 
You can patent a design, not a general idea. And so yes, it's okay that CS uses a pocket opening feature, since their design is different(and not as good) from Emerson's

I suppose so, CS has the wave either forward or aft of the Emerson version with relation to the thumb disk. It's naive for me to think that the knife business should be a gentleman's business. It's a business like any other. Ideas are stolen.
 
I'm indifferent as far as the use of the feature, but I think it leads to a slippery slope. you can get into x company designed the liner lock and everyone has to license the use from them, or thumb studs, everyone paying royalties to DuPont (I have no clue who the first company to make these materials were, I just know zytel is by DuPont and using them as an example) for materials that are almost just like zytel. at the same time I see the point of "that's my intellectual property, you put no effort into helping me develop it, why should you benefit from copying me with a slight variation to my design?"
 
I don't know the history of the various locks that are available these days, nor the legalities for sure. It just seems to me that Spyderco, Kershaw and Southern Grind thought that the royalty was the right thing to do, and I agree with them, but CS (and I'm sure others) did not see things similarly.
 
I believe Fox knives also uses the wave under agreement from EKI and they have several models using that feature.
 
That Bad Monkey looks very good. I just can't justify spending more than $100.00 on a blade at this point. Damn.

I was thinking about the Cold Steel AK-47. I nixed that idea for several reasons, with the non-royalty in the mix. Is it Ok that Cold Steel does not pay a fee but uses the patented dea to make beaucoup bucks?
I don't think Cold Steel is making "Buku" bucks from a single plate on some of their knives. They are providing an overall product at a specific price point. So it stands to reason that they sell. Their mechanism is not a wave feature, so no royalties need to be paid. Ideas aren't patented either, specific products are patented. Ideas are usually written and spoken, which can be copy written. Just buy whatever item you are comfortable purchasing, no need to worry really about who gets royalties and who doesn't.

You can patent a design, not a general idea. And so yes, it's okay that CS uses a pocket opening feature, since their design is different(and not as good) from Emerson's

Agreed.
 
I don't think Cold Steel is making "Buku" bucks from a single plate on some of their knives. They are providing an overall product at a specific price point. So it stands to reason that they sell. Their mechanism is not a wave feature, so no royalties need to be paid. Ideas aren't patented either, specific products are patented. Ideas are usually written and spoken, which can be copy written. Just buy whatever item you are comfortable purchasing, no need to worry really about who gets royalties and who doesn't.



Agreed.
Exactly. It was designed as a different method of opening. Whether or nor that was foreseen as a way to "wave" their knives is unknown, but personally, I think it was a simple side effect of their design rather than intention. I've actually been meaning to pick up one of the new Cold Steels.
 
Fox Knives has several that I have that feature the Emerson Wave (Emerson Wave Patent No. 5.878.500) and they pay royalties to Emerson Knives. These are Col. Moschin Delta Special Operation small (FX-SOK09CM02B) and large (FX-SOK09CM01E) and Karambits (478, 479, 599).

The DPx Gear HEST/F folders have a bottle opener that can be used to wave open the folders. It's somewhat different and they're not paying royalties to Emerson as far as I know.
 
There are only ~3 patented designs that are Emerson Wave-like. Such a simple design is hard to improve upon, and infringement is fairly likely if the someone were to try and design around it. The Demko patent (which is written VASTLY better than Emerson's) pretty much puts the nail in the coffin for anyone else to try and copy Emerson's design. Unfortunately, Emerson's patent runs out in 3.5 years, then anyone can make a Waved blade. Demko will hold his patent for another 10 years, but that won't matter once Emerson's runs dry.

Here's the rub: Pursuing infringement is expensive. VERY expensive. For Emerson to go after a knife manufacturer, it has to be worth the IP attorney's asking price. Serving a company that has only made $40k off of his patented Wave may only cover the attorney's retainer. Most larger knife companies are smart enough to not step on the intellectual property of others, so it'll more than likely be a smaller company that is not worth the legal fees. A cease and desist letter may or may not get them to stop infringing.

-Your neighborhood IP guy
 
There are only ~3 patented designs that are Emerson Wave-like. Such a simple design is hard to improve upon, and infringement is fairly likely if the someone were to try and design around it. The Demko patent (which is written VASTLY better than Emerson's) pretty much puts the nail in the coffin for anyone else to try and copy Emerson's design. Unfortunately, Emerson's patent runs out in 3.5 years, then anyone can make a Waved blade. Demko will hold his patent for another 10 years, but that won't matter once Emerson's runs dry.

Here's the rub: Pursuing infringement is expensive. VERY expensive. For Emerson to go after a knife manufacturer, it has to be worth the IP attorney's asking price. Serving a company that has only made $40k off of his patented Wave may only cover the attorney's retainer. Most larger knife companies are smart enough to not step on the intellectual property of others, so it'll more than likely be a smaller company that is not worth the legal fees. A cease and desist letter may or may not get them to stop infringing.

-Your neighborhood IP guy

I looked up the Demco patent but could not find pics. Does anyone have any?
 
Some years ago, Kershaw came out with the Talon. It had 3 versions: plain edge, combo, and "bottle opener". The bottle opener became very popular among pikal users, as it deployed the blade in a reverse grip. I recall it preceding the Emerson version, but Kershaw didn't advertise it as an opening system.
 
I spoke with Ernest at the Pasadena show in 2010 and showed him a couple of knives I had waved. He didn't have a problem with it. I have heard it on here that I would cut a wave hook into a folding shotgun stock if given the opportunity.
 
I spoke with Ernest at the Pasadena show in 2010 and showed him a couple of knives I had waved. He didn't have a problem with it. I have heard it on here that I would cut a wave hook into a folding shotgun stock if given the opportunity.

LOL on the waved shotgun! Cool man - I'm glad Emerson was easy going about it.

To the OP - as far as paying royalties, etc. I wouldn't worry too much about it. If somebody thinks they are being ripped off it's up to THEM to raise a stink about it. It is their responsibility to protect their intellectual property. Your only responsibility as a consumer is to buy what you want to buy.
 
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