External frame packs obsolete? I don't get it

[pinnah]

You state "Notice no adjustability" Kelty says "Torso Fit Range: •16 - 22 in / 41 - 56 cm". Maybe I have my terms wrong, I thought 16" to 22" meant that the user could adjust the straps to fit a shorter or taller person between those two sizes. . . . I also see 3 points on the shoulder straps that can be adjusted. #1, the little sliders at the base of the shoulder pads, #2, the Sternum strap can be raised and lowered and #3, There is a way to change he height of where the shoulder straps hit the frame.

I'm not seeing any way to raise or lower the attachment point on the pack frame for either the shoulder strap (should be roughly mid scapula) or the "load lifter" strap (should create a 45 angle off the shoulder).

These adjustments have been standard on internal frame packs since the early 80s.

 

[Bob W]

I'll take some pictures of the Omega this evening showing the various adjustment points. Maybe the Kelty is more adjustable than it appears in the pictures. I'll also take measurements of the padding thickness - the back, waist, and hip straps.

 

[neeman]

Frames let me carry loads much higher and so I do not stoop
So between a good hip belt and the high loads, I find frames very comfortable
And much cooler for the air circulating

But when I need balance like skiing, snowshoeing or scrambling then I want an internal pack that is closer to my body

 

[chopchop]

Wonder whatever happened to the Colemans with the flexible external frames that would hold shape when vertical, but bend with you if you bent over? I had one, and have no recollection of what happened to it

I picked one up second hand and emailed Coleman about it. Not only do they not make them anymore, but they had no info/specs/manuals on the different models. Zip. I googled around a bit and found that Outdoor Products started making a very similar if not the same frame. Coleman used to call it the "Ramflex" frame, but I haven't seen anything by that name in my searching.

We have an electro-fishing rig set up on a coleman frame at work. It's a control box with a small honda generator on a shelf. The rig probably weighs about 50lbs or so, and after years of hauling, pitching, sliding, & slinging the thing in and out of trucks and up and down stream beds, the frame is still in great shape... a little scuffed, but going strong.

Originally Posted by wildmanh
You state "Notice no adjustability" Kelty says "Torso Fit Range: •16 - 22 in / 41 - 56 cm". Maybe I have my terms wrong, I thought 16" to 22" meant that the user could adjust the straps to fit a shorter or taller person between those two sizes. . . . I also see 3 points on the shoulder straps that can be adjusted. #1, the little sliders at the base of the shoulder pads, #2, the Sternum strap can be raised and lowered and #3, There is a way to change he height of where the shoulder straps hit the frame.

I'm not seeing any way to raise or lower the attachment point on the pack frame for either the shoulder strap (should be roughly mid scapula) or the "load lifter" strap (should create a 45 angle off the shoulder).

These adjustments have been standard on internal frame packs since the early 80s.

I'll take some pictures of the Omega this evening showing the various adjustment points. Maybe the Kelty is more adjustable than it appears in the pictures. I'll also take measurements of the padding thickness - the back, waist, and hip straps.

The Coleman Peak 1 frames could be adjusted by moving 3 bar sliders up, down, or sideways in increments until you get the fit you want.

On the Alps pack, it looks like the whole rail can be adjusted up or down by pulling the pins and moving it to the next through hole in the frame. Not pinpoint adjustable, but adjustable.

The Kelty doesn't seem to have either of these, since the crossbar looks welded and the straps are bolted directly to it.

I could be wrong, though. I've only held the peak 1 and a cheap Kelty in my hands, and have just seen pic's of the Alps and higher end Kelty packs.

 

[ThriftyJoe]

......

 

[OwenM]

I picked one up second hand and emailed Coleman about it. Not only do they not make them anymore, but they had no info/specs/manuals on the different models. Zip. I googled around a bit and found that Outdoor Products started making a very similar if not the same frame. Coleman used to call it the "Ramflex" frame, but I haven't seen anything by that name in my searching.
....
The Coleman Peak 1 frames could be adjusted by moving 3 bar sliders up, down, or sideways in increments until you get the fit you want.

That's it! Pretty high tech for 25-30 years ago
The packbag on mine was maroon in color, but I don't remember the orientation of the pockets. Think there was one on each side, and one in the middle.

 

[OwenM]

Google says:
Outdoor Products - produces a simple and economical EnduroFlex plastic framed pack that works surprisingly well. This is the same frame (with a different company name) as Coleman's Ram-Flex synthetic frame used in their old Peak 1 packs, used by other outdoor companies (such as custom hunting equipment companies) and by individual US airborne troops needing a frame that can withstand repeated impacts. The smaller version of this frame can be easily modified to be used in packs designed for the US Military ALICE frame. A pack with the small frame version can be purchased for less than US$ 40.

I think this was the pack I had, except mine was a deeper red/maroon color.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Large-COLEM...576&pid=100011&prg=1005&rk=2&sd=260906363173&

Huh, Outdoor Products is still using that frame.
http://outdoorproducts.com/firefly/
http://outdoorproducts.com/dragonfly/

 

[chopchop]

Google says:
Outdoor Products - produces a simple and economical EnduroFlex plastic framed pack that works surprisingly well. This is the same frame (with a different company name) as Coleman's Ram-Flex synthetic frame used in their old Peak 1 packs, used by other outdoor companies (such as custom hunting equipment companies) and by individual US airborne troops needing a frame that can withstand repeated impacts. The smaller version of this frame can be easily modified to be used in packs designed for the US Military ALICE frame. A pack with the small frame version can be purchased for less than US$ 40.

I think this was the pack I had, except mine was a deeper red/maroon color.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Large-COLEM...576&pid=100011&prg=1005&rk=2&sd=260906363173&

There you go! Mine is pretty much just like that also, but in black. My frame is about 36", so pretty big. They made smaller frames as well.

 

[NoFair]

If price isn't an issue this is probably the best external you can get.
http://www.norrona.com/Products/0049-03/recon-synkroflex-pack-125l
Norwegian SF get them and I used one while in the infantry

 

[sideways]

If price isn't an issue this is probably the best external you can get.
http://www.norrona.com/Products/0049-03/recon-synkroflex-pack-125l
Norwegian SF get them and I used one while in the infantry

Interesting, I was not aware norrona makes packs. Their clothing line is solid.

The Finnish company Savotta still makes a lot of external frame packs. They supply the Finnish Army with big green canvas monstrosities for hauling too much jump into the sticks. It seems the packs are hard to get outside Europe.

 

[HikingMano]

Kuiu seems to be putting out great external frames for the UL Hunting crowd:

http://shop.kuiu.com/2012-frame-and-suspension-p93.aspx

[video=youtube;0JKfEel5tys]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0JKfEel5tys[/video]

My buddy has one, and that carbon fiber frame is pretty sweet.

 

[Hammer67]

KUIU makes some truly kick-@$$ gear. I haven't checked their packs out in the flesh yet, but I really like the design - clean and simple. The other gear I have from them has all been excellent.

 

[HikingMano]

KUIU makes some truly kick-@$$ gear. I haven't checked their packs out in the flesh yet, but I really like the design - clean and simple. The other gear I have from them has all been excellent.

That they do :thumbup: I only have a baselayer, and soon some soft shell pants, but my buddy's got a few things and it's all quality from what I've seen. He's somewhat decked out, even worked their booth at last year's SCI or Western Hunting and Conservation Expo. Anyway, Jason really listens to his customer base to create things that truly function well in that sphere. Incidentally, I've been thinking about trying some of their waterproof down at some point... I think Kuiu would put out a quality first-gen product.

Anyway, if you get a chance to check out their packs in person, I think you definitely should; I bet it'd be right up your alley :thumbup:

 

[HikingMano]

With regards to the OP, I like internals for many of the reasons already listed (primarily balance, weight, keeping everything protected). I'll add that UL gear combined with a light internal frame gives you flexibility close to what you'd get when using a daypack when scrambling off-trail. You get minimal silhouette for moving through snag-conducive brush (get off trail in California coastal chaparral, or most anywhere off-trail that isn't a meadow or alpine, and your stuff can get torn up if not tough or streamlined, not to mention the annoyance of getting hung up every few paces. And if you're above tree-line, then the abrasion is the primary concern), and a flexible frame provides flexibility in movement.

In addition, I prefer using one big compartment to strapping multiple bags to an external frame. For one, breaking camp is fast. I use a dry bag pack liner for water protection, and my quilt gets stuffed into the bottom loosely first, with other gear packed and appropriately distributed on top, with minimal stuff sack use. It's fast, secure, and I can protect things like a cuben fiber tarp from punctures, rips, or abrasions. Then I just pick up my light and well-balanced pack and go, often not taking off my pack until my next camp or the vehicle.

I also use my backpacking pack as a day pack for hikes away from a base camp or a summit grab, rather than bring another small pack for added weight, even if it is one of those nifty double-duty stuff-sacks. Those sorts of day trips while backpacking are often off-trail or scrambling, so I want something light and nimble.

But I agree, if I knew I'd be hauling a heavy load on a highway, I'd be looking for a nice modern external, with the weight of the pack itself determined by how robust materials the trip conditions would require.

 

[lukeeson111]

How do you like the shoulder straps and hip belt on that Alps pack? They look really thick and comfortable. The edge of the hip belt on the Jansport Scout I bought recently presses into the base of my spine. Have you have that problem? I noticed they sell the bare frame version of the Alps pack (which chopchop just posted a pic of) over at Amazon right now for $83.04. Camelcamelcamel says it was as cheap as $72.99 last December. I went ahead and set a price watch for it.

The hip belt and shoulder straps look interchangeable with my old Jansport. The pack bag on my Jansport has some wear but it's not done yet. It's the hip belt and shoulder straps that are really showing their age. Might almost be worth it to get one of those Alps frames just to replace those parts on my old pack and keep using it forever for 20+ lb loads..?

The shoulder straps and hip belt are pretty comfortable...I own many packs (Arcteryx x 2, Osprey x 4, Camelbak x 1, Kelty x 2) and although I thought the Alps pack would be very inferior to the other ones I own I would say for the price it was the best buy for quality / versatility vs price.

The frame is very adjustable with a pin system. The rack on the bottom of the pack frame is removable if you do not need it.

The only thing I dislike is the rings on the pin system tend to make noise as they hit the aluminum frame. But you could easily go to a hardware store and swap the rings with something else that wouldn't make noise. I just haven't taken the time to do so.

 

[Bob W]

Introducing the Camp Trails Omega.

Here are some pictures of the shoulder strap adjustments. You can adjust not only where the shoulder strap connects, but also where the stabilization strap connects. The shoulder straps also adjust horizontally to fit wide or narrow shoulders.

The shoulder strap stabilizer is adjustable at the top and bottom, allowing for the hiker to adjust the position and length.

Notice how the back is actually a thick heavy pad, not just a piece of mesh.

Like most packs, the sternum strap adjusts up and down.

Difficult to show, but here are the adjustments available to raise or lower the waist strap in relation to the pack frame.

 

[wildmanh]

I picked one up second hand and emailed Coleman about it. Not only do they not make them anymore, but they had no info/specs/manuals on the different models. Zip. I googled around a bit and found that Outdoor Products started making a very similar if not the same frame. Coleman used to call it the "Ramflex" frame, but I haven't seen anything by that name in my searching.

We have an electro-fishing rig set up on a coleman frame at work. It's a control box with a small honda generator on a shelf. The rig probably weighs about 50lbs or so, and after years of hauling, pitching, sliding, & slinging the thing in and out of trucks and up and down stream beds, the frame is still in great shape... a little scuffed, but going strong.
The Coleman Peak 1 frames could be adjusted by moving 3 bar sliders up, down, or sideways in increments until you get the fit you want.

On the Alps pack, it looks like the whole rail can be adjusted up or down by pulling the pins and moving it to the next through hole in the frame. Not pinpoint adjustable, but adjustable.

The Kelty doesn't seem to have either of these, since the crossbar looks welded and the straps are bolted directly to it.

I could be wrong, though. I've only held the peak 1 and a cheap Kelty in my hands, and have just seen pic's of the Alps and higher end Kelty packs.

Google says:
Outdoor Products - produces a simple and economical EnduroFlex plastic framed pack that works surprisingly well. This is the same frame (with a different company name) as Coleman's Ram-Flex synthetic frame used in their old Peak 1 packs, used by other outdoor companies (such as custom hunting equipment companies) and by individual US airborne troops needing a frame that can withstand repeated impacts. The smaller version of this frame can be easily modified to be used in packs designed for the US Military ALICE frame. A pack with the small frame version can be purchased for less than US$ 40.

I think this was the pack I had, except mine was a deeper red/maroon color.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Large-COLEM...576&pid=100011&prg=1005&rk=2&sd=260906363173&

Huh, Outdoor Products is still using that frame.
http://outdoorproducts.com/firefly/
http://outdoorproducts.com/dragonfly/

Dang it, I keep loosing my replies. Hopefully this one posts.

Gents, thanks for taking the time to post the pictures, links and information. This really helps me understand what everyone is talking about and what I've been missing/incorrect about.

The frame on the Coleman and Outdoor Product packs looks quite interesting. I may have to hunt one of them down and try it out. This thread also has been interested in checking out some more Internal frame packs.

A cross country Hike along rough terrain yesterday and this thread, have me thinking that I should find a new day pack and pass my Medium Alice w/frame and Molle II Waist belt on to someone else. I've used it on 8 mile hikes along good trails with out much discomfort. But yesterdays 4 mile cross country trip left me feeling all beat up. A dedicated day pack would probably have been so much more comfortable. Thanks!!!

 

[wildmanh]

Bob W, That's one impressive pack. Thanks for the pictures.

 

[ThriftyJoe]

......

 

[HikingMano]

Yup! :thumbup: My guess is the velcro will hold up pretty well, as long as you keep it clean and don't really adjust it any more than you need to. But yeah, I haven't had anything for that long yet

I did a 5 day trip last year with a colleague of mine, older guy with his original gear from his CO backpacking days. This thread brought back the memories of seeing his gear and my gear then side by side:

Anyway, yeah, this pic highlights the fact that if you can go small and external (with a smaller pack bag). I'm doing a trip with him again this summer in Yosemite, and he's thinking he should be able to strap his canister to the frame. He's already cut out the internal divider in the bag to make it one large internal compartment for easier packing and less weight.

I personally don't prefer having all my stuff strapped on separately outside, but I'm game to try it out one trip. The modular nature is appealing, and as long as you use drybags to keep your insulation protected, everything should be fine. My biggest thing, again, would be mobility/balance and quick packing when breaking camp. I think if you had everything bagged, you wouldn't even need a manufactured pack bag. Just strap stuff-sacked/dry-bagged gear directly to the frame (as you already pointed out). Even cheaper than $170.