F ball bearings! OK, maybe not so much now, opinion changing

My opinion on bearings is that I slightly prefer them in an EDC knife, but that preference is not strong enough to influence my knife purchasing habits. My reasoning is that maintenance is easier.
While together in perfect working order, yes I agree that washer knives are at an advantage because they can be nearly as free as bearing knives with added strength and nowhere for grit to get into the action. However, all knives need to be taken apart and maintained eventually, and in my personal experience doing that with caged bearings is just easier. I don't have to worry about keeping the washers polished and having to oil them the right amount, then find the exact right tension in the pivot to get the action how I want it. For a ball bearing knife I can just clean everything with a paper towel, throw it together dry, crank down the pivot, and it's good to go with perfect action and no play.
I don't think this is worth it with some bearing systems, just ones that are thoughtfully designed (i.e. CAGED bearings, large balls that are widely spaced, and riding on properly hardened steel washers).

And as far as long term durability, they're fine. I've abused the shit out of my 0560 for four years (two of which it was my only pocket knife) and it's still rock solid.
 
I don't think BBs are a bad idea, but many may be poorly designed. Washers get gummed and dirty too, I've had them get so bad that the knife was hard to open (CRKT M16). Not being able to open and clean my knife is a bigger problem to me. These things shouldn't equal less durability.

It's not just about opening smoothly, if I'm buying a knife for defensive purposes or the possibility of, I want it fast into action. I don't have time to open it with two hands or for it to fail to open or whatever. Design, quality of washers or bearings, how/where they are used matter to me.

I want my folders to be durable and to be able to really use them, anything that requires really hard use I have fixed blades for. They should hold up to some pretty rough stuff but I didn't buy them as prybars.
 
PURPLEDC said:
Yes I am saying a standard titanium lockbar presents no issues if the user of the knife isn't a brain dead idiot doing crap to their knife to intentionally see if it will fail. Often times causing the failure themselves. Idiot proofing a knife isn't the same thing as making a better knife. People buying a knife and the first thing they do is open it as hard as they can a million times, then turning the knife around and smacking the spine up against a table a hundred times until they deform the lockbar so much that it eventually fails. ZT had an issue with lockstick and used the insert as a fix. What do zt people whine about after that? Now the lock moves over too far if I use my kung fu grip and don't remember that pivots need to be tightened.

Its funny you will use chris reeve as an example of how things should be done but only when it serves your position. He doesn't use steel lockbar inserts. In fact titanium framelocks had been made a couple decades before lockbar inserts became a thing. The real problem as I see it are people having unrealistic expectations of what a folding knife is and isn't. As for your complaint that bearings are by no means a comparison to chris reeves skeletonized washers? The folder in my pocket with 47 bearings on each side of the pivot in three rows begs to differ. You act as if their is only one type of bearing system. There isn't by the way their are many.

Either way you are bringing up a point that is almost comical to me as lateral stress is something you should be trying to avoid with a folding knife regardless of the pivot type. I cant think of any company that promotes their folding knife as a pry bar. The point I'm trying to make is that even if we can agree that a folder with washers is stronger than a bearing folder its a moot point as a bearing equipped knife in most cases is stronger than it should ever need to be in the first place if used as the tool it was designed to be. A knife. You can always build something thicker and stronger. But who gives a crap if one knife can handle 200lbs of lateral stress and another 300 when you shouldn't be subjecting a blade to lateral stress in the first place? A steel block for an engine is usually much stronger than an aluminum block. But if you are only pumping 200 horse power through it, it makes no difference. I'm not saying you have to like bearings. Dislike them all you want. But people keep on talking about how much weaker they are and unnecessary. Every single issue people bring up is usually not an issue at all. Its just preference. And its another option for those who like them. But these completely farcical tales of inferiority really are unwarranted especially seeing in 20 years ikbs has been around and the 10 years production knives have had bearings I have not seen a single instance of an actual failure. Ive seen issues due to neglect, and I have seen wear that ceases after a race is formed and I have seen a lot of posturing that they are inferior. But no actual accounts of those failures. It reminds me of the early 90's when dudes would tell me my sunglasses couldn't take a .22LR to the lens like their oakleys and I have to remind them that I am trying to stop sunrays not bullets. Any knife you have. Any one, I don't care what it is could be made thicker, heavier and out of more sturdy materials. But what does that matter if you don't need that extra strength? You don't like them? fine. But please this conjecture that they are weaker would only be relevant if bearing knives were constantly failing to perform their task of being a knife. That doesn't happen.
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I'll just raise a few points because i think we could debate all day on this.

- Strider knives had massive issues with their Ti on metal lock bar interface wearing out prematurely, even with zero hard use what so ever or silly spine whacking, they themselves admitted and started re-designing their lock bar cut geometry. My ZT 560 did also, with no actual cutting or spine hitting, just openings and closings. So it's safe to say, as i said before - you are playing the lottery in hoping the manufacturer has good interface geometry for a titanum lockbar to not wear out before it's time if not heat treated.

- I never ever said that a knife with bearings will fail, ever. You can go back and see all my posts on this forum that say they will last and do the job - however, i state they are a structural downgrade, even if you don't notice it. Why create a weakness in a knife when there doesn't have to be? Knives can flip rocket fast on large, supportive polished washers. I guess it's personal preference then, just like some people are still happy driving around on lesser grade tires on their cars, they'll work fine sure, but are they as good as they could be and will they develop more wear than the alternative?

- I used Chris Reeve as an example because most people seem to hold his knives in such high regard, i also mentioned other cheaper brands also if you see my posts, i'm not using it only because it serves my position, i've never bashed Chris Reeve knives. If CRK thinks it's wise to not use raw Ti on Steel as a meeting point, i feel that's a decent enough reference point.

Anyways, to each his own, it's pretty obvious not all bearing systems are implemented or created equal.
 
Your bearings red line around 9000 RPMs, just don't go to fast. Halfasst is your best bet.
 
Mick_1KRR said:
I'll just raise a few points because i think we could debate all day on this.

- Strider knives had massive issues with their Ti on metal lock bar interface wearing out prematurely, even with zero hard use what so ever or silly spine whacking, they themselves admitted and started re-designing their lock bar cut geometry. My ZT 560 did also, with no actual cutting or spine hitting, just openings and closings. So it's safe to say, as i said before - you are playing the lottery in hoping the manufacturer has good interface geometry for a titanum lockbar to not wear out before it's time if not heat treated.

- I never ever said that a knife with bearings will fail, ever. You can go back and see all my posts on this forum that say they will last and do the job - however, i state they are a structural downgrade, even if you don't notice it. Why create a weakness in a knife when there doesn't have to be? Knives can flip rocket fast on large, supportive polished washers. I guess it's personal preference then, just like some people are still happy driving around on lesser grade tires on their cars, they'll work fine sure, but are they as good as they could be and will they develop more wear than the alternative?

- I used Chris Reeve as an example because most people seem to hold his knives in such high regard, i also mentioned other cheaper brands also if you see my posts, i'm not using it only because it serves my position, i've never bashed Chris Reeve knives. If CRK thinks it's wise to not use raw Ti on Steel as a meeting point, i feel that's a decent enough reference point.

Anyways, to each his own, it's pretty obvious not all bearing systems are implemented or created equal.
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Striders knives issue with titanium as you even seem to point out yet don't actually acknowledge was a matter of geometry and not an issue with the materials. It had nothing to do with titanium being a poor material for a lock face. Had the issue been bare titanium as you seem to think then wouldn't they have changed it? Geometry and wear are two different things. And just because you change the geometry doesn't mean the wear doesn't occur it just means that the knife was designed or in your examples redesigned to not be an issue.

On your second point, its moot. Even if its a structural downgrade most people using a knife will never need to worry about those limitations. Your question of why create a weakness if their Is no need? There is no need for washers in a knife. A blade can function perfectly fine without them as seen in countless automatic folders that were never designed to include them. In the case of knives the strength of any feature is relative to the stresses you will be subjecting a knife to. Again like I have numerous times, a folder was never designed to have lateral stress. The stress it is supposed to see bearings are a non issue. Now if you knowingly use your knives for things that they are not intended for such as prying or batoning where you can get twist, then yeah bearings might not be for you. But having a stronger knife is only an upgrade if you actually need it. And putting bearings in a knife is only a downgrade if you again use your knife in a manner you know it was not intended to be used for. Anything can be made stronger. Take any knife you have and someone could make it bigger and badder making your knife the weaker one. Who cares if you don't need it to be stronger than it is?

As for chris reeve he carburizes. Its just a method of heat treating titanium for maximum hardness which ZT was doing. He doesn't carbidize. So it is bare titanium riding on steel. Did he make the ceramic ball lock face? Sure did. Is it implemented in all his folders across the board? no it is not. Because some don't need it. My point with chris reeve is that he does things multiple different ways and has options because he knows and can acknowledge that others have different needs and preferences and that their is no one right way to make a knife. If their was he wouldn't have those options. Moral of the story is you don't need, like want or would benefit from bearings. But that does not make them inferior and it does not make them a weakness. They just aren't for you. Which like what I have been trying to drive home is that we have options for a reason. And none of those options should be belittled nor the people who prefer those options simply because you don't share their opinion. You tire analogy is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. if you have a prius having Z rated high performance tires is pretty much a giant waste of money if your car cant even get to the speed they are rated for. We all like what we like. And I think options are a great thing. I personally will NEVER buy another knife that rides on washers. But I appreciate that others who are not like me can still get what they want.
 
Mick_1KRR said:
Nah, you've missed the point, the point was about over-engineering a simple pivot function. Plus, it's not that i don't like them, it's that they are structurally implemented with a disregard to long term stability. Why do you think titanium fame lock knives were later upgraded with steel inserts. Also why CRK hardens his Ti interface, also why Hinderer does the same. If a maker made a pure soft Ti on Steel interface for a lock bar these days people would clearly see it as a design flaw. The pivot area is of no exception if you ask me, it is under abrasive contact just as much as a lock bar and also lateral stress in certain uses. But hey, if it's cool and makes it flip out super fast i guess all is ok right? I can't understand this logic.

But i do agree that there are plenty of knives for all of us, so all one has to do luckily is avoid the things they don't like and move along. I do enjoy discussing it tho.
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I'd say the difference is that a properly engineered BB pivot is NOT under abrasive contact. The bearings should be rolling smoothly across the Ti surface, not grinding against it. On top of that, a pivot should be greased or oiled at all times, while you can't expect the same out of a lock face. As I said before, cases where the bearings are wearing races into Ti surfaces are cases of bad engineering or manufacturing, not the result of an inherently flawed system.
 
PURPLEDC said:
Striders knives issue with titanium as you even seem to point out yet don't actually acknowledge was a matter of geometry and not an issue with the materials. It had nothing to do with titanium being a poor material for a lock face. Had the issue been bare titanium as you seem to think then wouldn't they have changed it? Geometry and wear are two different things. And just because you change the geometry doesn't mean the wear doesn't occur it just means that the knife was designed or in your examples redesigned to not be an issue.

On your second point, its moot. Even if its a structural downgrade most people using a knife will never need to worry about those limitations. Your question of why create a weakness if their Is no need? There is no need for washers in a knife. A blade can function perfectly fine without them as seen in countless automatic folders that were never designed to include them. In the case of knives the strength of any feature is relative to the stresses you will be subjecting a knife to. Again like I have numerous times, a folder was never designed to have lateral stress. The stress it is supposed to see bearings are a non issue. Now if you knowingly use your knives for things that they are not intended for such as prying or batoning where you can get twist, then yeah bearings might not be for you. But having a stronger knife is only an upgrade if you actually need it. And putting bearings in a knife is only a downgrade if you again use your knife in a manner you know it was not intended to be used for. Anything can be made stronger. Take any knife you have and someone could make it bigger and badder making your knife the weaker one. Who cares if you don't need it to be stronger than it is?

As for chris reeve he carburizes. Its just a method of heat treating titanium for maximum hardness which ZT was doing. He doesn't carbidize. So it is bare titanium riding on steel. Did he make the ceramic ball lock face? Sure did. Is it implemented in all his folders across the board? no it is not. Because some don't need it. My point with chris reeve is that he does things multiple different ways and has options because he knows and can acknowledge that others have different needs and preferences and that their is no one right way to make a knife. If their was he wouldn't have those options. Moral of the story is you don't need, like want or would benefit from bearings. But that does not make them inferior and it does not make them a weakness. They just aren't for you. Which like what I have been trying to drive home is that we have options for a reason. And none of those options should be belittled nor the people who prefer those options simply because you don't share their opinion. You tire analogy is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. if you have a prius having Z rated high performance tires is pretty much a giant waste of money if your car cant even get to the speed they are rated for. We all like what we like. And I think options are a great thing. I personally will NEVER buy another knife that rides on washers. But I appreciate that others who are not like me can still get what they want.
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Yes i'm aware of the Strider issue, it was the radius cutout and small contact patch of the lockbar that caused the problem, but that is part of the point, in some cases you're playing the lottery when the very fact that a slight incorrect angle on the lock face can make your lockbar wear away prematurely. That's a gamble i'm just not willing to spend money on.

And yes i'm fully aware of carburizing vs carbidizing, i've owned, dismantled and used many variations of each over a very long time and seen the outcomes of both first hand.

My entire point is basically that i prefer not to have elements of my knives that are subject to wear (even tho very slight and unnoticeable under normal use) Purely my opinion tho. I feel the bearing craze started purely because flippers became the rage and people complained of bad flipping/detent action, like on Hinderers as one example. Flipping action and speed of deployment became such a focal point of these knives that people would completely bash and tell people to not buy certain knives because the flipping wasn't as good. Even tho they couldn't be bothered to learn how to pre-load a flipper tab in Hinderers case. I agree with your point, it's not for everyone and i'm not saying people are stupid that buy bearings, i'm just trying to discuss and point out things others may be oblivious to, heck, i've seen guys on the forum asking how to adjust a simple pivot or how to dismantle a knife with torx screws, not everyone is as experienced with knives and i like to contribute. For instance i feel bad for the people that purchased the Spyderco Advocate off the bat, complete engineering failure on that specific bearing design, like i said they arent all created equal, some will last forever and others not. It's all information, i just have a strong opinion on it i guess, i have ocd when it comes to longevity, strength and build with knives. To each there own tho, i won't go into it any more as i think we both have perfectly good arguments both for and against. And to be honest i enjoy when someone disagrees with me as strongly as i do the oposite, sometimes it opens your mind up to certain things and gives you a new way of looking at things, so thanks for the back and forth. Cheers
 
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Its a conflicting opinion because many ppl dont just buy to use but also to play with as a toy. I mean i love both types. If its a thumb studd or hole opening i prefer PB washers but if flipper it has to have bearings for the sheer joy of it. I have several Shiros that i play with when watching TV. Higher end and custom knives will almost definitelly have bearings if its a flipper and thats what majority wants at that price range since they enjoy it. There are tons of choices when it comes to folders to satisfy every need. If u dont like bearings then simply dont buy them noone is forcing anyone. Just my 2 cents
 
Its a conflicting opinion because many ppl dont just buy to use but also to play with as a toy. I mean i love both types. If its a thumb studd or hole opening i prefer PB washers but if flipper it has to have bearings for the sheer joy of it. I have several Shiros that i play with when watching TV. Higher end and custom knives will almost definitelly have bearings if its a flipper and thats what majority wants at that price range since they enjoy it. There are tons of choices when it comes to folders to satisfy every need. If u dont like bearings then simply dont buy them noone is forcing anyone. Just my 2 cents


Why do ppl like spinners? They are not usefull in any way other than pure joy. Besides bearing knives in urban environment are not an issue. If u r working outside and hard using it then i would agree with u. Get a hard use knife with washers.

EDIT: hate lag post smh
 
Personally I'm glad there are so many manufacturers out there making so many types of blades. If they started making all knives with bearings wouldn't some of you be upset? Well if all knives had washers then there would be a whole other group upset.

If I don't like rap music I just turn the station, I don't get why this is so hard.
 
Why are you crying about ball bearings? If some old timer came to you and said "god damn, all these knives that i want to buy but never will both old and new have these stupid washers in them" what would you say? Before washers came.... no washers. But you seem to like the idea of washers. So what would you say to them? I own one knife with ball bearing pivot, a ZT 0561 and it's been through fish, squirrels, wood, dirt, grease, metal shavings from a die grinder, water, etc. and the only thing i had an issue with was the detent ball. Sooooooo should we get rid of that too? I ran it under hot water to get the blood out and one drop of oil either side, good to go. Can't say the same about my sebenza. That thing drives me crazy with the washer grease. Don't write off a design just because you think you're the end all be all of mechanical engineering. You can sit there and say a V6 isn't going to run as well as a V8 because it's missing two cylinders, but it runs just fine... i've got similar backgrounds to you and i don't condemn an idea until i've put it through the paces. A theory is one thing, being belligerant and arrogant will only get you insults and not taken seriously. You may want to tone down your list of qualifications, they do nothing for your case. You like bearings, he likes washers, i like a ton of blade play and loose pocket clips on a gerber (not really). You just pled your case all wrong and came off close minded, it didn't make for a good look.
 
Reeks of narrow mindedness.
Maybe some see bearings as an unnecessary option, I see it as an innovation.
I have a bunch of them and never had a single issue. I also have a bunch of washers, no problems there either.
I have a bunch of autos, and Hogues, without washers or BB, they're fine also.
I'm looking forward to what's next because rather than being a nay sayer, I'll check out what's next. I won't condemn it without handling it.
JMO.
Joe
 
Aldebaran said:
Full disclosure: I have not owned a ball bearing pivot knife and never will. I have extensive experience as a heavy industrial mechanic, and mechanical engineer position, and scientific instrument design engineer, automotive and motorcycle mechanic, and machinist. I have camped in the forest and the desert. Dirt is everywhere.

A foundry is probably one of the worst industrial environments you could ask unprotected ball bearings to survive. So you just need to blow some compressed air through the knife and squirt some special oil into to pivot. Do you have access to a compressor and oil in the middle of the desert? How about just after gutting a fish for the fire by the stream? Should you need to clean and lubricate all the time? My washer pivot knives never have had grit get into the bearing surface causing it to stick.

It is simple. A ball bearing system costs much more to implement than just a couple of washers. Washers need a drop of oil and off you go. I don't always have a compressor with me wherever I go. In high load low speed applications, plain bearings (washers) are highly preferred over ball bearings. It is an engineering principle.
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I will agree with you that there are certain knives and situations where bearings don't make sense. However there are knives where bearings work really well. A gentleman's folder running on bearings is a beautiful thing in my mind. Even some hard use knives work just fine with bearings. For someone who has not owned a ball bearing knife you certainly have a strong opinion, which you are entitled to. Grit is grit, it will clog washers just as easily as bearings. A knife properly made with bearings will hold up quite well even in dirty situations (especially if the bearings are captive). In terms of maintenance, yes they are slightly more challenging to work with, but personally I enjoy taking a ball bearing knife apart and maintaining it so that is not an issue for me. If you are that worried about dirt, a fixed blade or slipjoint is probably a better option for you. I think you are greatly under estimating the performance of ball bearing blades.
A knife running on bearings that is well made and is truly smooth is very enjoyable. It's a little foolhardy to completely discount ball bearing knives because you feel they may not live up to your standards. There are plenty of people with office/indoor jobs who really appreciate a nice smooth knife, so the knife industry responded to that.
 
I'm sick of people acting like their opinion is fact, like the op.

As long as it works, who cares about the pivot. Bearings, washers, liquid gummi bears, as long as it opens and closes smoothly, and won't break, I care not.
 
If you drag your knife through mud and dirt, maybe bearings are not for you. But in an everyday setting, I find that bearings wear less than washers and allow for tighter tolerances without sacrificing action.
 
Dfunk1210 said:
If you drag your knife through mud and dirt, maybe bearings are not for you. But in an everyday setting, I find that bearings wear less than washers and allow for tighter tolerances without sacrificing action.
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I'm afraid this just isn't correct...(looks like this thread has been resurrected) The reason you think you're getting better tolerances and better action is because of how tiny the contact patch and resistance is between the ball bearings and the titanium scales. The fact that the contact patch is SO tiny allows the bearings to just roll as it was intended even when pressed really hard against the scales. But - you're actually just squishing the ball bearing into the softer titanium the harder you tighten it. So in fact in stead of your replaceable washers wearing it's now actually your titanium handle scales that wear. All the while you're thinking wow OMG look how smooth it is with no blade play and the pivot is cranked! While you do this, you're actually making a small track in the titanium because the bearing is so much harder than the steel. It may feel ultra cool and smooth for a year or 2, but long term those tolerances just get worse because of it, and you just keep cranking down that pivot to squish the bearing further in and make it feel snug again. It's a slow process and might seem a moot point, but it's an engineering fact. Just because it hasn't been around long enough for people to see, or people sell them off once they're done flipping them on the couch a few hundred times doesn't mean it isn't true. Titanium VS Steel in abrasive contact = Steel wins. End of story. But at the end of the day, manufacturers will make what sells and what is "trending"
 
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My knives with bearing pivots as of yet have not worn races into the titanium scales. That isn't to say it won't or can't happen. However I assume that as the bearings wear these races I will just tighten the pivot about to take out any potential slop. Then now that the races have been worn perhaps the titanium will have been work hardened to a degree and that will slow further wearing as the balls now are riding on a surface they cut for themselves and thus that surface is just right for them. I don't know if this is true or not, I am truly talking out of my ass, but it is wishful thinking.

Maybe someone more aware of the properties of metals can fill us in.

All that being said I do prefer washers as it seems well designed knives with washers don't have any of these potential problems. I have Benchmades and Hogues that fly open without bearings.
 
Lapedog said:
My knives with bearing pivots as of yet have not worn races into the titanium scales. That isn't to say it won't or can't happen. However I assume that as the bearings wear these races I will just tighten the pivot about to take out any potential slop. Then now that the races have been worn perhaps the titanium will have been work hardened to a degree and that will slow further wearing as the balls now are riding on a surface they cut for themselves and thus that surface is just right for them. I don't know if this is true or not, I am truly talking out of my ass, but it is wishful thinking.

Maybe someone more aware of the properties of metals can fill us in.

All that being said I do prefer washers as it seems well designed knives with washers don't have any of these potential problems. I have Benchmades and Hogues that fly open without bearings.
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Don't worry you're definitely not talking out your ass mate, i think once the titanium has been worn a bit by the metal pushing it there is a point where it will almost come to a stop. This is because the bearing will not so much wear or sand down the titanium but almost push it aside, in a similar way to how you peen metal to push it or secure something in place (think CRK ceramic balls in the lock bar) Once a small rounded trough has been cut in, i think the curve of that race will snug around the bearing slightly which will slow the rate of wear down significantly :) There's a proper term for this but i forget what it is. Like i said it's a moot point since it won't break the knife, but i'm a bit OCD and like to ponder on these things.
 
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