Fair use?

T

Tom Holt

Joined
Dec 30, 1999
Messages
475
In another thread, Munk wrote -

"Now we're on the subject, I read your section on testing the blades. Would my Khukuri's stand that? I don't know I'd want to do that to anything. You know, there's also something called respect for the tool. Khukuri's are not responsible for holding people on the flat of their edges, are they? Just seems like an awful lot to expect."



Munk raises an interesting point. Just what should we expect of a khukuri?

In my opinion, there's use, and there's abuse.

I'd define use as the sort of tasks the knife was designed to cope with. This includes (among other things) cutting, chopping, prying, hammering with the spine, splitting (used as a wedge), planing & the like. Use can range from light (chopping onions) to extreme (felling mature trees)

Abuse is other stuff - clamping the blade in a vise and leaning on the handle to see how far it'll flex; chopping nails; cutting up 55 gal oil drums; throwing a khuk point first into an oak door and then standing on the handle.

Khuks are built to be used, and I think we have a right to expect that a heavy duty tool should stand up to heavy use. The degree of use appropriate to a khuk is to some extent governed by the design; AKs are more suited to heavy chopping than the smaller sirupatis, for instance. In some cases, what would be use for one model is abuse for another - felling a 50 year old oak would be use for a 20" AK, but abuse for a 20" sirupati, & so on.

OK, here's a suggestion; do you agree? IMHO; We are entitled to expect our khuks to withstand use. We are at liberty to abuse our khuks if we choose to do so, even to the point where such abuse becomes routine if the khuk will stand it, but if they break or fail, it's our fault, not the knife's.

Because of HI's no-quibble guarantee, and the many reviews of HI knives that record how khuks have withstood abuse, often extreme abuse, without permanent damage, we run the risk of assuming that anything goes; that you can't abuse a HI khuk because they're designed to withstand *anything*, right? Otherwise (the argument runs) why're they guaranteed for life, no questions asked?

Following on from this, there's an additional risk of seeing the guarantee and the apparent implied warranty as a challenge... ("Unbreakable knife, huh? We'll see about that...") Consciously or subconsciously, we start treating the khuk as something like one of those Test-Your-Strength machines they used to have at fairs. We bash our khuks on rocks, or throw them, or abuse them in other equally ingenious ways - because these are the famous unbreakable knives. Right?

Wrong (IMHO). Nothing is unbreakable, especially steel cutting tools. HI khuks have a lifetime guarantee not because they're warranted unbreakable, but because Bill Martino's business philosophy is, The Customer Is Always Right. This is a great way to run a business (especially for the customers); it's NOT an implied warranty that the knives are unbreakable.

Bottom line; I assume that my HI khuks will withstand fair and even extreme use. I'm also confident that they're well enough made that they'll withstand a helluva lot of abuse; that there's a margin of error with a HI khuk that you don't get with other knives. BUT; if I abuse a khuk, knowingly or accidentally, and it busts, then it's my fault, or just plain bad luck; not the knife's fault, or HI's. The fact that Bill will replace the knife if I ask him to is another issue altogether.

OK, guys. Your views on this point, please.
 
I agree with you Tom. Your suppose to use a tool for what it's designed for. Abusing it could result in damages and injury and it's your own fault. I think the Kamis get paid little enough for all the work they put in, and it's unreasonable for someone to abuse their kukris then expect the HI warranty to cover the stupid things they do. Uncle Bill stands behind it's product, but taking advantage of the warranty policy is not right.
 
I respectfully disagree.

The first khukuri I bought from HI, a 15” AK, is still going strong. I have “abused” it, including chopping it into the heartwood of a stump and prying with it until it temporarily flexed. I was able to flex the knife about 15 degrees using all my strength. Of course, it snapped back when I released the pressure. I never did pry lose that particular piece of heartwood. I had to chop it out. It felt good to have a knife I could pry with for that purpose though.

Just yesterday I took the knife out again as I walked one of my favorite routes in the forest, clearing this spring’s new growth from the route as I went. A friend new to khukuris was with me. A delicate lass who begged me to let her do some limbing with the enchanted knife. Perhaps she’ll be an HI customer soon.

If that knife breaks, I’ll tell Bill and take him up on his guarantee. But I don’t think it will. It’s already been through hell and is still going strong.

I wouldn’t send a knife back if I scratched the finish or if the edge nicked when I chopped into a rock. Those can be polished, filed, or sharpened out. If the tang broke I certainly would return it.

The kamis have shown that they can make knives that are very tough and can be relied upon. It is not doing them a favor to relax our expectations. They have the skill to be great, even if some poor knives have made it through the pipeline. We may buy some of the knives out of pity, but there is a far larger market for truly great knives at an exceptional price, backed by an honorable guarantee.

I think HI should keep its guarantee, and that HI customers should not hesitate to use it.

I also think the blades should get a QC test and inspection before polishing at BirGorkha. A few hard whacks at that point will tell if the knife will break or if it is up to HI standards.
 
Howard Wallace wrote -


"The first khukuri I bought from HI, a 15” AK, is still going strong. I have “abused” it, including chopping it into the heartwood of a stump and prying with it until it temporarily flexed. I was able to flex the knife about 15 degrees using all my strength."

Personally, I wouldn't consider a 15 degree flex to be abuse, by any standards. Prying is one of the things you use a knife for. When I make a knife, I flex it about 30 degrees. The American Bladesmiths Association have an extremely vigorous flex test, based on their assessment of what a blade can be expected to withstand. I'd define abuse as deliberately trying to overflex a knife ie beyond reasonable expectations.


"The kamis have shown that they can make knives that are very tough and can be relied upon. It is not doing them a favor to relax our expectations."

I entirely agree. But I think it's unfair to set out deliberately to break or damage a knife, and then complain when we succeed...


"I think HI should keep its guarantee, and that HI customers should not hesitate to use it."

I believe that the HI guarantee is one of the things that sets HI apart from other knife dealers, and long may it continue. But it's not a case of "I'll bet you a new knife that you can't bust this one"

"I also think the blades should get a QC test and inspection before polishing at BirGorkha. A few hard whacks at that point will tell if the knife will break or if it is up to HI standards."

Quality control, or proof (to use a nice old-fashioned term) is essential *before* the item is shipped, be it a knife or anything else. What I'm questioning is the idea that if a HI knife breaks at all, under any circumstances, it's HI's, or Bill's, fault.

I regularly abuse my khuks. If it's a hot day and I can't be bothered to go back to the truck for a hammer, the khuk becomes a hammer. I make an assessment that a particular knife can take such and such a level of abuse; so far, I haven't assessed wrong. But if I get it wrong and the knife is ruined, that's my fault, surely?
 
Tom, I'm with you, and I don't see anything in Howard's post that is inconsistent with what you wrote - he's describing hard use, not abuse:). Sometimes I'm amazed at the things people do to their knives (yes, they are knives, not sharp superprybars) and then express surprise when they fail, and invoke The Warranty. Heck, I've broken a khukuri (on a steel fence post), but I just got it fixed and figured I'd exceeded the design parameters. (If anyone knows of a knife designed to cut through steel fence posts, please let me know - especially if it's warranted to do so!)
 
I don't know that the post I put up earlier today had anything to do with your post here Tom but I feel obligated to respond anyway.

Yes, I took my khukuris and tested them to see if they would fail with the knowledge that if they did Uncle would replace them or Art would try to repair them. If they had I would have taken them up on it.

Fact; some bad blades have come out of Bir Ghorka in the past few months. WE ALL KNOW THIS. I bought these blades to be used not only by me but someday by people I care about. I wanted to be sure that they could handle what I expect them to handle based on the field tests and reports provided by people like yourself, Cliff Stamp and others. So I went out, found a tough piece of wood and chopped it up into kindling. I didn't use them as hammers, pry bars, screw drivers, cold chisels, drawknives or sheet metal cutters all of which by your own words, you have done. What I did was more than reasonable. I feel no shame whatsoever for testing them to see if they would fail. I now know that I can rely on these blades and my respect for the kamis is higher than ever.

Cole
 
Most of my khuks receive light to moderate use. One or two get none, and several get hard use. I bought my first HI khuk based on the premise that, "Wow, if Cliff Stamp can't break it, I sure as heck never will."

I have never performed a lateral stress test on any of my khuks and I never will, I hope I'll never need to use a Chiruwa as a prybar, but if I do I have faith that it will perform, and the stakes are low if it fails.

My field tests normally consist of a solid day's worth of the activity I intend to use that knife for. I have only "torture tested" two, and that was out of respect for requests from Art and Uncle to ensure satisfactory performance.

I feel the HI guarantee works because of the caliber of typical HI customers. This bunch tends to consist of highly principled people with integrity. And as Uncle Bill once wrote, he reserves the right to decline a sale to someone he feels is intentionally abusing his guarantee.

I have set my own limitations as to what I consider to be reasonable use of my khuks. HI guarantee or not, I cannot bring myself to abuse such fine tools. Incidentally, this is why my wife got a villager for the garden instead of a Bura Sirupati. ;)

I felt no guilt at notifying Uncle Bill when I had a blade failure, nor was my faith in the quality of HI knives shaken. These things happen sometimes.

I remain thankful that we are in an environment that allows the HI guarantee. It works because of the people.
 
It would be interesting to see which Khukuris were selected most frequently for hard use. You'd think AK's would be usually chosen for the SCUT, but I'd bet there will be surprises from more glamorous blades.

My Chitlangi should be left alone...but it likes chopping so much it's hard to leave it at home.

There is an old pine stump in the yard, I rolled it down the mountain to get it home. It came from a twisted, tortured wreck of a tree growing out of rock. It was tough when alive. Dead now, saturated with hardened sap in the tight grain, khukuri's bounce off if you don't hit just right. None of my Khukuris could bite much, but none suffered damage either.

munk
 
Interesting thread.
Click to expand...

I concur. It seems an appropriate place to ask a couple of questions that have been on my mind lately.

I had a recently-produced large khuk's edge re-hardened by Art. He did an excellent job. I however had to send the knife back to Art again because the tang broke just short of the buttcap. I had been using this khuk as a wedge, to split tough wood by striking the spine with a wooden baton. I did find that there definitely is a sweet spot to strike on the spine that minimizes vibrations when using the khuk in this application. The exact location varies a little depending upon how much of the blade is clamped by the wood. I found that surprisingly intense vibrations could be produced in this application if the spine is struck elswhere. I attributed the tang failure to vibrations which were focussed upon an area of the tang which had been ground down to a smaller size to pass through the battcap and keeper. This grinding left a sharp corner where the tang broke. I would think that entirely traditional tang-shaping would be done by hammering, thus avoiding sharp corner cuts or grinds. It is also possible that the second heat treatment of the blade with handle attached affected the adhesive, allowing greater vibrations than normal. The handle did remain completely firmly and safely attached to the remainder of the tang.

However, I have used a second khuk as a wedge, carefully striking the sweet spot on the the spine only 9-10 times and the buttcap has loosened. Loosening of the buttcap accompanied by a slight displacement of same and chipping out of a small amount of the wood handle preceeded the tang failure on the first khuk. The motion of the curved buttcap presumably put pressure on the handle, chipping it. The second khuk's buttcap exhibits no displacement, just slight rotation, although it did chip out a bit of the handle too. I hope it is just a loosened buttcap, and I am thinking of pinning it with a couple of short brass brads or pins and epoxy so it can't rotate.

Question 1: Does using the khuk as a wedge produce vibrations that are destructive? The vibrations are certainly different from chopping, and the user's aversion to producing vibrations is reduced since the handle may not be grasped tightly in this application. Is this application outside of "normal use"?

Question 2: Both of the knuks in question had no adhesive between the handle butt and the buttcap. This was evident from the sound and "feel" of filing them even with the handles. Is this the usual construction? While adhesive would reduce vibrations of the buttcap initially, I wonder how long it would be before the adhesive shook loose.
 
I expect my khuks to function very well for their intended purpose - mostly cutting natural materials. With the skill and workmanship that goes into them, I'm confident that if I'm ever in a situation where I NEED a knife not to fail, it won't, and that it will withstand just about any force I could humanly put on it. The unconditional warranty is nice, but doesn't do much good when you're in a bad spot and need it NOW - just make sure that hard spot isn't between a rock and a steel fence post. :D
 
A concrete filled steel fence post would be handly to have around. Just slap it with the khuk's sides several times, not with the edge.

I'm with the kamis. A blade is forever. A handle is not. If doing the above loosens the handle, superglue melts and combines with laha for a more permanent fix. If that ain't enough, pull the handle, drill it out and reset using one of the recommended slow drying epoxies.

What would be abuse to a normal knife is expected of a khuk.

Survival of limited abuse for a khuk should be that first test of a khuk. Being proven. As is firing proof loads in a gun on the continent. If it holds up, take care of it from then on other that in life and death situations. If the blade doesn't, return it. If the handle doesn't then fix it. Steel should hold up. Natural handle materials should be expected to survive a lot of the time, but not faulted if they fail.

But if you forsee abuse, get a thick blade and a pana buta or chiruwa tang.

That's my opinion and it's worth what you paid for it.
 
Fair use?
Click to expand...

A fair question, and a good topic. It comes down to the science and art of knives. We are usually good at talking subjectively about knives from the perspective of art. We know how they feel, how they look, and whether or not we are satisfied with them. But, when it comes time to defind them mechanically, and objectively, as a machines we have no where to go.

The key questions: How should this knife be used; What is the intended purpose of this knife; and, How does this knife compare to similar knives, are left unanswered. Everyone has an opinion, but, no one has quantifiable means of comparing these seemingly simple, yet subtly complexed machines.

Here is another perspective on the same question. Are knifemakers over engineering knives to accomodate users who don't know how to make the most of their knives?(link below)

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=202302

n2s
 
It comes down to how and when it fails. I have for example bent GH khukuris under the same load that will not leave a bend in a HI khukuri. The reason is that the GH blades had much softer spines and edges. Is it abuse, or simply a case of a knife that is not up to where it could be?

The way you determine what is reasonable is through experience. If you hit a khukuri off of a rock you expect the edge to get damaged visibly. However the blade should not break in half, nor should the tang crack, nor should the damage be that extensive that it demands power equipment to be ground out.

Not all khukuris are of course the same. The edge on a Kobra is going to be thinner and more acute than on an Ang Khola, so again experience is key. If you don't know, then check with people who have more experience and thus can judge based off what they have seen, on if your behavior is the expected or not.

-Cliff
 
Many thanks for expert information, Cliff.

I happen to agree 100% with Cliff's testing methods.
 
Just for the record; I wasn't getting at Cole, or implying that the tests he carried out were anything other than entirely reasonable.

As for Firkin, using khuks as wedges; I do exactly the same with my 20" 2.5lb villager, and used to use the long Kobra in the same way. Personally I'd classify this practice as abuse (because it's a known knife-killer, because of the shock it subjects the tang to) and if I bust a khuk thereby I'll consider it to be entirely my fault, not an inherent weakness in the knife. (If I used a chiruwa khuk as a wedge and it broke in the tang, I'd probably invoke the HI guarantee.)

But I don't see this contingency arising; I've used that 20" villager a lot, and I think I know now what it can take and what it can't (the latter category includes nuclear explosions, asteroid strikes and not much else...)Accordingly, I'd (IMHO) consider use as a wedge as "legitimate abuse", if that makes any sense - as opposed to, say, trying to hack through a half-inch steel rod, just to see if I could.

Bottom line; you remember how, in the old-time Star Trek, Scotty was always saying, "Cap'n, the engines canna take much more o' this..." But somehow they did, and the old ship somehow managed to hang together, in spite of all the appalling things Kirk did to it. I suspect that the Enterprise was made in Nepal. Khuks will handle an astounding level of abuse; so, when trouble comes, you can be fairly sure they'll deal with it. But actively looking for trouble is something else entirely...
 
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