Fairbairn-Sykes dagger?
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The Magician
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I can't speak for anyone else, but for what the knife was made for it is very effective. I have never used it to kill, but that is the point. (pardon the pun). It will not make a good utility knife. The sheath was designed to be permanently attached to your clothing or gear and by todays standard is not versatile. For a collectors piece I find them very attractive, but for use I don't off people. 
JMO
JMO
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but the knife certainly has its limitations. To be blunt , you will be hard pressed to put a "razor's edge" on it due to the blades geometry.Simply put, it is a "stabber", not a "slasher" as currently manufactured...I think the case was otherwise with Fairbairn's originals (i.e.it was a cutter too). If you can find a copy of The Manual of the Mercenary Soldier by "Paul Balor" (in all likelihood Mitch WerBell), I think he gives a very good appraisal of its combat capabilities in light of its limitations (e.g. use it to stab to the soft parts...don't try to cut thru a ribcage with it). Anyway, at ~$40 US I consider it a must have given all the history behind it and my interest in WW2 combatives....I even have a commemorative one on order from Brigade QM...now I can make my other one a "beater" to play with
, you will be hard pressed to put a "razor's edge" on it due to the blades geometry.Simply put, it is a "stabber", not a "slasher" as currently manufactured...I think the case was otherwise with Fairbairn's originals (i.e.it was a cutter too). If you can find a copy of The Manual of the Mercenary Soldier by "Paul Balor" (in all likelihood Mitch WerBell), I think he gives a very good appraisal of its combat capabilities in light of its limitations (e.g. use it to stab to the soft parts...don't try to cut thru a ribcage with it). Anyway, at ~$40 US I consider it a must have given all the history behind it and my interest in WW2 combatives....I even have a commemorative one on order from Brigade QM...now I can make my other one a "beater" to play withFirst generation knives were of high quality materials and very tough.
As WW2 progressed the materials level dropped due to need for brass and such elsewhere. Knives became weak and this is where the reputation for fragile comes in.
Rex Applegate designed his Applegate-Fairbairn during the mid-point (roughly) of the war to be a "better mousetrap" as the problems with the F-S had become apparent. It didn't go into production due to materials and lack of interest in making a better fighting knife as opposed to better tanks and such.
Handsome design, there when needed, better knives for same application out there for some time.
As WW2 progressed the materials level dropped due to need for brass and such elsewhere. Knives became weak and this is where the reputation for fragile comes in.
Rex Applegate designed his Applegate-Fairbairn during the mid-point (roughly) of the war to be a "better mousetrap" as the problems with the F-S had become apparent. It didn't go into production due to materials and lack of interest in making a better fighting knife as opposed to better tanks and such.
Handsome design, there when needed, better knives for same application out there for some time.
glockman99
RIP Dann, you were a good guy.
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THIS is a dagger:
Kershaw Trooper (still in production).
Kershaw Trooper (still in production).
I own F-S dagger and recently decided to carry it when I am in a worse part of the city e.g. where my hows is located. I never held the Applegate design or any over military dagger for that meter so I dont have much to compere with. F-S is a very light and handy for it's size and essay to hide it under a jacket but its definitely a stabbing weapon.
P.S. recently a wannabe knife expert told me that S-F is a survival knife.
P.S. recently a wannabe knife expert told me that S-F is a survival knife.
not2sharp
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Survivor,
You are risking a major legal problem purely for cosmetics. The FS dagger was designed primarilly as a status symbol for the Commandos. They wanted these guys to have special trappings and a knife was fairly simple and symbolic. It was more of a trophy or badge then a weapon. The Commandos had access to far more lethal toys, and that is what they did most of their killing with.
If you want to carry a knife, go with something you can call a utility knife. It is not always legal; but, you can always explain a tool. A weapon on the other hand speaks to a prior intent to do harm.
BTW, I agree with the others. The knife was fragile, and poorly designed for utility.
n2s
You are risking a major legal problem purely for cosmetics. The FS dagger was designed primarilly as a status symbol for the Commandos. They wanted these guys to have special trappings and a knife was fairly simple and symbolic. It was more of a trophy or badge then a weapon. The Commandos had access to far more lethal toys, and that is what they did most of their killing with.
If you want to carry a knife, go with something you can call a utility knife. It is not always legal; but, you can always explain a tool. A weapon on the other hand speaks to a prior intent to do harm.
BTW, I agree with the others. The knife was fragile, and poorly designed for utility.
n2s
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I bought a FS commando dagger while i was in the UK in 1993, which was supposedly made by the Government contractor. Mediocre weapon - balance is terrible and the construction is fragile. I would expect to be holding just the handle if I ever subjected it to rough use. And as for non-combat utility - forget it. Has a interesting history though, which is why I bought it. If you are interested in the history, this book does it best - Commando Dagger : The Complete Illustrated History of the Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife by Leroy Thompson
The Applegate-Fairbairn which came later corrected many of the faults and is a far better tool for the job, assuming the job legally allows one to carry double-edged blades... Boker makes the most recent factory version of the AF dagger.
Andrew Limsk
The Applegate-Fairbairn which came later corrected many of the faults and is a far better tool for the job, assuming the job legally allows one to carry double-edged blades... Boker makes the most recent factory version of the AF dagger.
Andrew Limsk
The Magician
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But I saw some in a catalog...can't remember which one. Anyway, they stated that the FS they were saelling was made by the origional manufacturer "Wilkinson Sword" and they were advertising it as a RC 12!! Was it made out of toilet paper? A typing error? Someone tell me it's true?
There is a similar knife used in a TV commercial. The upholstry repair commercial. You know the one where an off camera guy stabs a naugahyde sofa with a dagger. That knife.
It looks very similar to the F/S dagger. The knife used to stab the couch looks very quality. It has a skull crusher, pointed butt. The couch stabber looks like the tip is sturdier too.
Does anyone know the name and details about the couch stabber?
Take care,
bug
It looks very similar to the F/S dagger. The knife used to stab the couch looks very quality. It has a skull crusher, pointed butt. The couch stabber looks like the tip is sturdier too.
Does anyone know the name and details about the couch stabber?
Take care,
bug
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- 227
Just my tuppence worth:
The F-S dagger was excellent for it's intended role - it's perfectly balanced, slim, light, easily concealable, and the idea was that the commando would sneak up behind the sentry, place his hand other the mouth and nose of the sentry, and strike at either the kidneys or side of the neck, thus taking the sentry out silently. It was used thousands of times in WWII and later conflicts for just this purpose.
At the time, american soldiers did not have a standard issue knive. A bayonet, but no knives. when they came over to England and trained with our commandos, they loved the knife. But Americans being Americans, they tried to use it to open beer bottles, dig holes, carve thier name into trees, as a lever bar, and would insist on trying to "take out" sentries by trying to slip the blade between the ribs into the heart¹.
Thus the Applegate-Fairburn was born. a redesigned knife to make it stand up slightly better to the average (not all, but the majority) American soldier's incorrect uses of the blade.
Soon after, the US forces gave up entirely on this design and started using large, flat, heavy, unbalanced clip-point blades (see: kabar) this was perfect for opening bottles, digging holes, and beating things. For actual killing however, it's not so great. As a slicing/hacking tool, it works. Brutal but effective, a true multi-purpose knife and the first real "ultilitarian" knife, but a specially-designed killing knife it is not.
One interesting point of note - the British Army still issues the F-S knife to certain units for the specific role it was originally designed for. It also issues a seperate knife for "utility" (see: "emergency knife"), a seperate knife for beating things, use as a pry bar, tent peg etc (see: "survival knife"), and a seperate knife for hacking through the jungle (see: "machete/panger"(the latter being the nickname), one very unlike most contempory designs but I won't go into that as it'd be dragging this thread off-topic). And everyone in the Amry is issued with a folding knife. Made of sheffield stainless (I have no idea of the exact composition, I'm no metallurgist) which has one "sheeps foot" blade, and one bottle opener (with the flat screwdriver bit at the end as copied on millions of SAKs). Naval versions incorporate a marlin spike, and I've no idea about the RAF version. As you can see, instead of trying to solve every problem with a single blade as the US Army tried, our army just use specific tools for specific jobs. and no mention of the British army's knoves would be complete without the mention of the much-lied about Kukri. It's not a blade for ritual sacrifice of *any* animal, it's not a fighting knife, it's not a machete, it's the Nepalese equivalent of the bowie knife - does a little bit of everything. There is also no compulsion to draw blood with the blade every time it's taken out of it's sheath. Given it's one of the world's oldest "utility" knives, there would be no Gurkas left if they had to bleed themselves or thier companions every time they wanted to use the knife for it's many thousands of uses.
As for manufacturers, they vary. The 1st version was indeed made by Wilkinson Sword. This had a slightly slimmer blade than later version, and a distinctive "s" shaped guard. The 2nd version had a thicker blade and handle, and adopted the straight guard most seen. the 3rd version was very similar to the second, it was introduced in 1943, and remains the current type. Different makers and markings are abundant, but basically if it doesn't have a "crows foot" (properly called a wide arrow mark, the official stamp of the MoD) and a makers name stamped into the back of the guard, it's a replica. If the maker'sname is anywhere else, it's a fake. If there's no crows foot, it's a fake. If it has numbers on the handle near the guard and one of the bottom of the pommel, it's either a fake or a rare 2nd version. If it looks like a first version, it's almost certainly a fake/replica, as very few of these have survived and most are in museums and private collections. If it has a badge of any sort attached to the guard (as seen on most F-S style knives on eBay), it's a fake.
Please not this is all taken from my often-failing memory, anyone who'd like to correct me on any point(s) is welcome to.
Danny
¹One thing many people fail to realise is that the best route to the heart truly is through the stomach. If you truly wish to pierce his/her heart, first gut your victim and then go up through the intestines under the sturnum. You only attempt to crack open the sternum/ribcage if you want the victim to live afterwards (see: operations involving the heart - transplants, bypasses, etc)
==edit==
Added a small point to the fifth paragraph that I've just remembered. Also please ignore typos, it's 07:47, I've been awake since 02:00 yesterday, have worked a 12 hour shift, and have consumed a couple beers.
The F-S dagger was excellent for it's intended role - it's perfectly balanced, slim, light, easily concealable, and the idea was that the commando would sneak up behind the sentry, place his hand other the mouth and nose of the sentry, and strike at either the kidneys or side of the neck, thus taking the sentry out silently. It was used thousands of times in WWII and later conflicts for just this purpose.
At the time, american soldiers did not have a standard issue knive. A bayonet, but no knives. when they came over to England and trained with our commandos, they loved the knife. But Americans being Americans, they tried to use it to open beer bottles, dig holes, carve thier name into trees, as a lever bar, and would insist on trying to "take out" sentries by trying to slip the blade between the ribs into the heart¹.
Thus the Applegate-Fairburn was born. a redesigned knife to make it stand up slightly better to the average (not all, but the majority) American soldier's incorrect uses of the blade.
Soon after, the US forces gave up entirely on this design and started using large, flat, heavy, unbalanced clip-point blades (see: kabar) this was perfect for opening bottles, digging holes, and beating things. For actual killing however, it's not so great. As a slicing/hacking tool, it works. Brutal but effective, a true multi-purpose knife and the first real "ultilitarian" knife, but a specially-designed killing knife it is not.
One interesting point of note - the British Army still issues the F-S knife to certain units for the specific role it was originally designed for. It also issues a seperate knife for "utility" (see: "emergency knife"), a seperate knife for beating things, use as a pry bar, tent peg etc (see: "survival knife"), and a seperate knife for hacking through the jungle (see: "machete/panger"(the latter being the nickname), one very unlike most contempory designs but I won't go into that as it'd be dragging this thread off-topic). And everyone in the Amry is issued with a folding knife. Made of sheffield stainless (I have no idea of the exact composition, I'm no metallurgist) which has one "sheeps foot" blade, and one bottle opener (with the flat screwdriver bit at the end as copied on millions of SAKs). Naval versions incorporate a marlin spike, and I've no idea about the RAF version. As you can see, instead of trying to solve every problem with a single blade as the US Army tried, our army just use specific tools for specific jobs. and no mention of the British army's knoves would be complete without the mention of the much-lied about Kukri. It's not a blade for ritual sacrifice of *any* animal, it's not a fighting knife, it's not a machete, it's the Nepalese equivalent of the bowie knife - does a little bit of everything. There is also no compulsion to draw blood with the blade every time it's taken out of it's sheath. Given it's one of the world's oldest "utility" knives, there would be no Gurkas left if they had to bleed themselves or thier companions every time they wanted to use the knife for it's many thousands of uses.
As for manufacturers, they vary. The 1st version was indeed made by Wilkinson Sword. This had a slightly slimmer blade than later version, and a distinctive "s" shaped guard. The 2nd version had a thicker blade and handle, and adopted the straight guard most seen. the 3rd version was very similar to the second, it was introduced in 1943, and remains the current type. Different makers and markings are abundant, but basically if it doesn't have a "crows foot" (properly called a wide arrow mark, the official stamp of the MoD) and a makers name stamped into the back of the guard, it's a replica. If the maker'sname is anywhere else, it's a fake. If there's no crows foot, it's a fake. If it has numbers on the handle near the guard and one of the bottom of the pommel, it's either a fake or a rare 2nd version. If it looks like a first version, it's almost certainly a fake/replica, as very few of these have survived and most are in museums and private collections. If it has a badge of any sort attached to the guard (as seen on most F-S style knives on eBay), it's a fake.
Please not this is all taken from my often-failing memory, anyone who'd like to correct me on any point(s) is welcome to.
Danny
¹One thing many people fail to realise is that the best route to the heart truly is through the stomach. If you truly wish to pierce his/her heart, first gut your victim and then go up through the intestines under the sturnum. You only attempt to crack open the sternum/ribcage if you want the victim to live afterwards (see: operations involving the heart - transplants, bypasses, etc)
==edit==
Added a small point to the fifth paragraph that I've just remembered. Also please ignore typos, it's 07:47, I've been awake since 02:00 yesterday, have worked a 12 hour shift, and have consumed a couple beers.
All the kabars I've used seemed to be balanced allright, though the last inch of blade does seem to get in the way. I've never understood why in the U.S. we always want to stab someone in the heart through the ribs, going for the kidneys or the neck would be much easier and as effective. If you want to get the heart turn opponent around and put the knife in under the ribcage at a upward angle. That would probably work much better than going through the ribs.
P.S. The only thing I've seen concerning using the F-S dagger in combat was a excerpt from either a training film or a film showing soldiers in training where the instructor demonstrates coming up behing the trainee putting his hand over the trainees mouth and pulling the head up and back and holding the point of the knife at the side of the trainees neck. The instructor was British and the trainee was American.
P.S. The only thing I've seen concerning using the F-S dagger in combat was a excerpt from either a training film or a film showing soldiers in training where the instructor demonstrates coming up behing the trainee putting his hand over the trainees mouth and pulling the head up and back and holding the point of the knife at the side of the trainees neck. The instructor was British and the trainee was American.
This is a sad fact in our politically correct world. Chances are the local politicians in the "worse part of the city" are on side of the goblins you must protect yourself from. In their opinion, there is no one worse than a guy who defends himself from criminal attack. Remember what happened to Bernard Getz?
Of course, any normal person knows it is OK to have "prior intent to do harm" when the issue is legitimate self-defense. Unfortunately, in most US inner cities the normal people aren't the ones in control.
The Bernard Getz case isn't a good example. I'm a Criminal Justice major and the case was in a textbook. Getz admitted that the people he shot made no overt threat to him but that he knew they were going to do something to him because he could see it in their eyes. Not exactly what I would call a reasonable cause to start shooting them.
As I recall, Getz was correct in his judgement. The attackers admitted plans to rob Getz. He had been robbed before, and recognized the approach of robbers.
It may not be a good idea to shoot someone based on a look in their eyes, but since Getz was correct in his judgement, it is a non-issue in that case.
It may not be a good idea to shoot someone based on a look in their eyes, but since Getz was correct in his judgement, it is a non-issue in that case.
By the way, my statements are not based on any legal knowledge nor do I care what the specific laws were in New York that applied to the Getz case. What I do know is that it is not morally wrong for a man to defend himself against armed criminals who are about to attack him, and that is just what Getz did.