first knife sooooo many questions

M

mikesolberg

Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
42
Hi, I've never made a knife before, and I kinda wanted to build one and now I can't stop thinking about building one. I've hadnoexperience with any thing other than just what I've read off of here and other forums. A Knife maker friends if mine gave me some 1080 to build my first knife, but I decided to use some old leaf springs just to Kinda practice and get the hang of it before I used the good steel. Now I've cut out my forms and used a grinder to clean up the form and semi start the edge, my first question is when I'm cleaning it up with a bench grinder, and the steel changes color is that bad? My next question is what's next? I don't have a belt grinder and I'm really not to sure where to head from here, any help would be greatly appreciated. I don't have a forge either but I can send it away to get hat treated, but ya any tips or tricks are very greatly appreciated
 
The Count will be along shortly with his standard reply for new makers. In the mean time, read through the stickies at the top of this forum. All the information you need and more is there. To answer your questions:

It is not bad for your steel to change color at this stage.

What is next is what should have been first. Do a lot of reading (see above). I don't know how much use your bench grinder will be. Your best bet is to use hand files and sandpaper. You can remove a lot of material with new, sharp files. Take a look through the video stickies thread and You Tube for videos showing how to file a blade to shape. Or type in the keywords "Walter Sorrells how to make a knife" in the You Tube search window. There are other videos that show you how to make a simple filing jig that will help you get good consistent bevels.

If you are a handy person (that is, you are good at building things with your hands and are clever in the way you approach things) you will be able to build many of the things you need. Grinders, forges, anvils, Jigs, sanding fixtures and more; all can be built at home with time, patience and a little ingenuity. When you get stuck, keep asking questions and posting your progress here. Folks 'round these parts are more than willing to hep.
 
I used the bench grinder just to get off some of the metal to kind of form the edge, the leaf spring is 1/4 inch thick lol.
 
You need a Photobucket account or something similar. You can get a free account. Then upload your pics there. Next to the pictures in your library there will be various ways to link your picture. Click on the link shown and then paste it into your post. Easy Peasy.


 
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Mike,
I would suggest you fill out your profile so a nearby maker can offer you some help.

There is no gentle way to say this - There are so many things wrong with what you have started. I can't really give you any advice on how to continue.

Your best method of getting a good first knife is to start on paper.
Draw the whole knife as well as drawing the blade only. Post those sketches here along with the materials you will be using and methods you plan to do use. The more we know about how you plan on making the knife, the better we can help you.

Once the drawings have been critiqued and any needed adjustments make, then you can start on the metal. Going slow and posting photos of each step BEFORE YOUR DO IT will prevent fatal errors.
 
Ok, you're at the beginning of your education. You'll get there soon enough. We'll help you. Hey, you did learn how to post pictures! Now we can see your progress. Stop working on this piece. It will not make a good knife. You are not so far off but this one is flawed beyond saving. Here are some thoughts to consider. Think of your knife as a house. The part we call the ricasso is the foundation of that house/knife. Look at lots of knife pictures. There is a small section between the tang and the cutting edge in front of where the guard goes. That block of steel is usually the thickest part of the knife and the cross section will have very parallel top, bottom and sides. Kitchen knives are a bit different but it looks like you are building a bowie style blade. This is the center of your knife. Since it is the flattest and most square at the corners it is used as a reference point for other parts of the knife. Another thing to keep in mind are corners. Sharp corners can cause stress risers which can lead to cracks or failure of the knife. Adding a small radius to corners helps to distribute stresses better. So, use a file guide or the jaws of a vise to help you file a straight line at the shoulder (where the guard is set behind the ricasso) and use a small radius where the shoulder meets the tang. You want the tang to be centered at the shoulders. That is, there should be the same amount of step on either side of the tang. Also you want as thick a tang behind the blade as you can while leaving room for your handle material. It can taper out as you move towards the butt end. Take a look.

 
okay I'm going to rig up a belt sander and cut out some knives then post and see what you guys think. Most important part (foundation) is the ricasso? K so with the previous knife, can you tell me what I did wrong (don't worry feelings won't be hurt lol) so I know what to do for the next ones
 
You seem to be jumping around a bit. The previous knife you showed us was a hidden tang style. The suggestions I described earlier apply to that style of knife. Now you have drawn up a full tang knife without a guard. This style has a different set of details particular to this construction. That is ok. If you want to build this style we can talk about that. But in order to see improvement over the last one or for you to learn the lessons the last one could teach, you should build another in the same style as your earlier attempt so direct comparisons can be made. Let us know what direction you'd like to go and we'll take it from there.
 
ok this one i had already drawn out, but I will draw out another bowie style, and you can tell me what you think
 
(I don't ever read Hammer and Tongs, )


The others have some really good points,

That outline on the steel looks exactly like that one you ground.




Firstly, get off the phone and find a real computer with a real screen,
You're going to need to see details.


Look at, study, examine, mediate on, the differences between this
IMG_0454-1.jpg



and this
output_zpsyobrj6kb.jpg





The back half is more important than the pointy end.


I'd put the steel down for a while

I think it's important for you to look at a few thousand photos of good knives first.



Then start with a pencil and paper, show us your drawings and you can be guided from there.

It's much easier to do over on paper than on steel

I think that a full tang may be a better place to start.
I would skip using that thick leaf spring, how are you going to drill a hole in it when it's already somewhat hard ?
 
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The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V33

The answer to a 13 young student is different than a retired machinist
With members worldwide, you may have a local supplier, hammerin or neighbour.
Join our community by filling your profile with location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment and hobbies so we get a sense of where and who you are.

Look at the threads at the top of the page.

The basics in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF
http://www.2shared.com/document/hk4wQruA/Absolute_Cheapskate_Way_to_Sta.html
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3622507/Jones-Scott-Jonesy-Absolute-Cheapskate-Way-to-Start-Making-Knives


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694673

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?8og1ix21j9dcz4n

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?02ra4do6xyzayeq
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/articles/nw1/scales1.htm

Bob Egnath how to http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9435307&postcount=43

BladeForums - E-books or Google books http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Books I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
Clear, well organized, available and inexpensive.

Knife Design:
Think thin. Forget swords, saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Look at hundreds of photos

Start with a drawing and post it, we love photos.
French curves, graph paper and an eraser are vital tools.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bHFtVNs9tWA/TEj5Quiq1ZI/AAAAAAAAAI0/rn2EoHoXpVc/s1600/The+French+Curve.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1147466-How?p=13120810#post13120810

Then a cardboard cutout template & with handles, pins and such.
Use playdough to shape a comfortable handle, good handles are not flat.

How to post a photo
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...AL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums

Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Bob Engnath Patterns in a PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?qgx7yebn77n77qx


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith - A modern book with colour photos - forging - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF Http://www.archive.org/download/elementarymachin00palmrich/elementarymachin00palmrich.pdf

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF http://ia700309.us.archive.org/6/items/completepractic00rosegoog/completepractic00rosegoog.pdf
Right Click and save

The $50 knife Shop-not recommended
This book has a great title, but is NOT gospel. It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench BS
Back when they used whale oil, it was still liquid oil.
Use a commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;
Grocery store canola oil works for some steels like 1084.

Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat it properly.
Forget Lawnmower blades and railroad spikes, start with a new known steel.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.
Proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo is inexpensive and quench in Canola.

Cable damascus is an advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but 2x72” belt grinders plans are now free on the web.


Videos

Don't be this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days. http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days. http://www.howtomakeaknife.net/FreeStuff/SafetyVideo.wmv

Many knifemaking videos are available, some better than others.

The best beginner videos I have seen:
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with inlays, tooling and machine stitching)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
Use a piece of known steel, not a file. This as an example of doing it by hand with few tools.
"Green Pete" posted it free.
Be sure to look at the other titles I mentioned too - spend some time searching.

Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/499...femaking_Basics_-_Make_a_Mora_Bushcraft_Knife

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

Videos for rent,read the reviews, Some are good, some bad, expect to wait months
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw

Nick Wheeler- Hand sanding 101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4x4QLpfnk

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files, railroad spikes and other unknown junkyard steels.
For the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find Eutectoid steel and quench in Canola oil.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheap & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

Suppliers List
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

FAQ's
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/faq.html

1095 is good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K
Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 CPM-s35vn Elmax, and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 due to minimum charges.


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench and Motor oil.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;
The best explanation and classification oil speeds I've seen
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?28197-Hardening-II-Quenching

Grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel like 1084

Brine and water are cheap, and technically correct for "water hardening" steels W1 and 1095 but a fast oil like Parks 50 or Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades
If you use water or brine, expect a "tink" and a cracked blade

Don't quench in a plastic pail of oil

Glue – Epoxy
Use new slow setting 30 min to 1 hour, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and seal out moisture.
Slow epoxy is stronger and gives you time to work with it.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive or blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean and no oil including fingerprints.
Use Acetone & Alcohol, or Blasting.
Don't over clamp it A “glue starved joint” is weak when all the adhesive is squeezed out.

Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex
JB Weld-leaves a grey line


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Just use 1084 instead of a file.
spheroid annealed steel is butter soft to file.

Stacy - 10 Tools
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1049666-Ten-Tools?p=11983527#post11983527

Examples of filing jigs
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg
Http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8152684286_312b9fc8da_b.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ#t=330

Grinders
A professional three or four wheel 2x72 is worth it
In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Entry Level Grinders
Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.metalwebnews.com/manuals/knife-grinder.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder-buy plans
http://usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://www.wilmontgrinders.com/Pages/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy.html


VFD Variable Speed made simple

Step pulleys are not as cheap as you may think
Maska steel pulleys are good plus shaft, bearings, belt

It all adds up to about 1/2 the price of a KBAC-27D

I like direct drive with no belts using a VFD and 3 phase motor for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with finer control.

NEMA 1 VFD’s are designed to keep your fingers out and the metallic dust intrusion will smoke it.


Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you some use1700 RPM at double speed.
Make sure it has a footed base for the KMG and NWG, or a C flange face mount for Bader, Bee, Wilton and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with paying $100 for shipping to Canada I save $ on used motors

The 1.5 HP combination is the most common
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.


VFD
KBAC-27D
http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_AC_Drives_Inverters/AC_Drives_NEMA_4X.html
http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbda_manual.pdf
Use the Distributor Locator to find a local source, online sources may be cheaper.

There are cheaper units, but the only VFD I have found that runs a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC-27D

It is NEMA 4, sealed from metal dust

Good community and company support, manuals, hook-up diagrams, photos and settings.
If you buy a bargain vfd, you're stuck with a chinglish manual and ridiculous programming.

I like that I can buy it in person from a local distributor in Canada.

Travis W reports running a 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is simple
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.

If you can't breathe, nothing else matters.

Wearing a mask and glasses on the top of your head doesn't count.

The minimum I would consider are silicone half masks with a P100 Filter
3M 7500
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...Ox_Uev7qe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=CH7500FP.pdf

and North 7700
http://www.amazon.com/North-Safety-770030L-Silicone-Respirator/dp/B002C08YCW
http://www.amazon.com/North-7580P100-P100-Particulate-Cartridge/dp/B000UH6PSE/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_b.

Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for acetone and glue fumes.
Prefilters can snap over the main filter for longer life.
There are 3 sizes get fitted in person

Shave, also test the every time.

For beards
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Search

This Google page searches BF well.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

Get rich making knives ?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...knife-making-worth-it?p=11980504#post11980504

A shop visit
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1166688-How-to-get-a-shop-invite

V33 March Jan 27, 2014

Countavatar.jpg
 
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My first two recommendations still stand:
1) Fill out your profile with all the info. - age, location, hobbies, occupation, interests.
2) put down the steel and pick up a pencil and some paper. Until you have hundreds of knives under your belt all knives should start on paper.

The biggest thing wrong with your bowie is the tang is in the wrong place. A bowie isn't an easy thing for a skilled maker to pull off and not have it look blocky.The skinner/hunter full tang you drew would be a far better first knife. Set the bowie aside for later on.
 
ok sounds good bowie set aside, until i get a little more skilled. 1234567890, I just wanted to use a leaf spring until i could kind of get the hang of making the knife and making an edge, I've got some 1080 from a fella I know out here but I didn't want to waste it until I kind of got the hang of things
 
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