Fixed blades in california/meaning of "concealed"

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Aug 19, 2014
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Sorry if this is something that gets asked a lot, but I haven't seen anything that deals with the specific type of carry I want to do in CA. Basically, I would like to be able to carry a fixed blade, but I don't know how far I have to go for it to not be concealed. I have a large, bulky belt clip I could use, which would meet the "waist area" requirement, but my shirt/jacket can hang over it. Is that considered concealed? What about sheathing it under the waistband with some paracord attached to the belt? That seems pretty concealed, but it's also still attached to the belt and in the waist area, which is what is mentioned in the law.

Also wondering about what the rules are for knives in bags, glove boxes, etc. Is a fixed blade inside a bag concealed? A fanny pack? (not that I would ever wear one)

Basically I want to know if there's a way to have a fixed blade on my person short of tucking my shirt in and/or carrying something so absurdly bulky and large that nobody could miss it.
 
First let me point out that I have lived in California (San Diego) for almost 45 years now, and I have been openly carrying a fixed-blade here for over the past ten years, so for me the laws regarding this issue are not academic, but instead, they are a very real concern. For that reason I make a point of knowing the laws on such matters and I have a lawyer on retainer who, among other things, advises me on knife laws.

When considering knife laws it is important to understand that there is the law, the written penal codes, and then there is the perception of law enforcement. Even if something is completely legal according to the penal code, it's still possible that a cop will arrest you because they perceive your knife, or manner of carry, to be illegal. And if your knife or manner of carry are not specifically mentioned by the law, then you fall into what I would call a grey area, and that might increase your chances of being arrested. If you are arrested, the charges might be quickly dropped a few hours later, but it might also take a few days, or weeks. It's also important to know that prosecutors are always looking to push the envelope in their pursuit of a conviction, and that they will always interpret the law in a way that is least favorable to you. These are important things to remember whenever venturing into a grey area of the law. And because California law is not micro-specific regarding what constitutes a "concealed" fixed-blade, that leaves some grey area.

As far as how CA law defines "concealed" fixed-blades, here is a link to CA penal code 21310 from California's official government website- http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=21310. Unfortunately the wording is a little vague, but it does specifically define "concealed" as being "concealed upon the person". I will also mention that under California law, ALL fixed-blades regardless of design are considered "dirks and daggers".

As far as a fixed-blade being covered by clothing, as my lawyer explained to me, whether or not the knife is considered "concealed" under the law will generally be determined by the perceived INTENT of the person carrying the knife. If a prosecutor believes that you were intentionally trying to conceal the knife from view, then you could expect to be charged. However, if the knife were accidentally covered by an article of clothing, then that should not be considered "concealed" under the law because it was not the persons INTENT to hide the knife from view (There is case law directly on this point in California, but I forget the case at the moment. As I recall, a man was acquitted of carrying a concealed weapon (knife) because the wind accidentally caused his clothing to cover the knife).

From what my lawyer has told me, a fixed-blade carried in a bag (duffel bag, backpack) is not considered "concealed" under CA law because it is not "upon the person". I don't know about a fanny pack. It might be possible for a prosecutor to successfully argue that because the fanny pack is secured to the persons body that it is therefore "upon the person". I'd call this a grey area, and I personally wouldn't take the chance.

As far as a vehicle, again, because the knife is not "concealed upon the person", it is perfectly legal to have a fixed-blade in your glove box, under your seat, in the center console, or anywhere else in a vehicle.

Many people carry a fixed-blade with the blade portion of the sheath in a pocket or inside the waistband. From what my lawyer has told me, as long as the knife, as it is carried, can be clearly identified as a knife, that it is very unlikely that it would be considered "concealed" in court. However, I also regard this as a grey area. I used to carry a fixed-blade in a back-pocket sheath with the blade portion of the sheath inside my pocket and only the handle showing, but I chose to go full open-carry (sheath hanging from belt) because I didn't want to take the risk of venturing into that grey area.

Here's my advice- If you are carrying a fixed-blade on your person, do your best to ensure that it can be clearly seen and that it can be clearly identified as a knife. I advocate full open-carry (no part of the knife handle, or the blade portion of the sheath covered by anything). This advice is based in part on the fact that I have been through the California criminal justice system, including jail, and I always recommend that people go the extra mile to avoid such experiences. I say, if you are going to carry a fixed-blade, carry it in such a way that you will have the least chance of winding up in jail.

As always, when in doubt about the law (or what you read on an internet forum), consult an actual attorney.

And just for the hell of it, since I already have it on file, here is a pick of me and my current daily carry fixed-blade, and how I carry it. Many cops have seen me carry it like this, some of them close enough to reach over and touch it, and not one of them has ever said a single word about it.

P1000909800x600_zps3b57f8ae.jpg
 
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First let me point out that I have lived in California (San Diego) for almost 45 years now, and I have been openly carrying a fixed-blade here for over the past ten years, so for me the laws regarding this issue are not academic, but instead, they are a very real concern. For that reason I make a point of knowing the laws on such matters and I have a lawyer on retainer who, among other things, advises me on knife laws.

When considering knife laws it is important to understand that there is the law, the written penal codes, and then there is the perception of law enforcement. Even if something is completely legal according to the penal code, it's still possible that a cop will arrest you because they perceive your knife, or manner of carry, to be illegal. And if your knife or manner of carry are not specifically mentioned by the law, then you fall into what I would call a grey area, and that might increase your chances of being arrested. If you are arrested, the charges might be quickly dropped a few hours later, but it might also take a few days, or weeks. It's also important to know that prosecutors are always looking to push the envelope in their pursuit of a conviction, and that they will always interpret the law in a way that is least favorable to you. These are important things to remember whenever venturing into a grey area of the law. And because California law is not micro-specific regarding what constitutes a "concealed" fixed-blade, that leaves some grey area.

As far as how CA law defines "concealed" fixed-blades, here is a link to CA penal code 21310 from California's official government website- http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=21310. Unfortunately the wording is a little vague, but it does specifically define "concealed" as being "concealed upon the person". I will also mention that under California law, ALL fixed-blades regardless of design are considered "dirks and daggers".

As far as a fixed-blade being covered by clothing, as my lawyer explained to me, whether or not the knife is considered "concealed" under the law will generally be determined by the perceived INTENT of the person carrying the knife. If a prosecutor believes that you were intentionally trying to conceal the knife from view, then you could expect to be charged. However, if the knife were accidentally covered by an article of clothing, then that should not be considered "concealed" under the law because it was not the persons INTENT to hide the knife from view (There is case law directly on this point in California, but I forget the case at the moment. As I recall, a man was acquitted of carrying a concealed weapon (knife) because the wind accidentally caused his clothing to cover the knife).

From what my lawyer has told me, a fixed-blade carried in a bag (duffel bag, backpack) is not considered "concealed" under CA law because it is not "upon the person". I don't know about a fanny pack. It might be possible for a prosecutor to successfully argue that because the fanny pack is secured to the persons body that it is therefore "upon the person". I'd call this a grey area, and I personally wouldn't take the chance.

As far as a vehicle, again, because the knife is not "concealed upon the person", it is perfectly legal to have a fixed-blade in your glove box, under your seat, in the center console, or anywhere else in a vehicle.

Many people carry a fixed-blade with the blade portion of the sheath in a pocket or inside the waistband. From what my lawyer has told me, as long as the knife, as it is carried, can be clearly identified as a knife, that it is very unlikely that it would be considered "concealed" in court. However, I also regard this as a grey area. I used to carry a fixed-blade in a back-pocket sheath with the blade portion of the sheath inside my pocket and only the handle showing, but I chose to go full open-carry (sheath hanging from belt) because I didn't want to take the risk of venturing into that grey area.

Here's my advice- If you are carrying a fixed-blade on your person, do your best to ensure that it can be clearly seen and that it can be clearly identified as a knife. I advocate full open-carry (no part of the knife handle, or the blade portion of the sheath covered by anything). This advice is based in part on the fact that I have been through the California criminal justice system, including jail, and I always recommend that people go the extra mile to avoid such experiences. I say, if you are going to carry a fixed-blade, carry it in such a way that you will have the least chance of winding up in jail.

As always, when in doubt about the law (or what you read on an internet forum), consult an actual attorney.

And just for the hell of it, since I already have it on file, here is a pick of me and my current daily carry fixed-blade, and how I carry it. Many cops have seen me carry it like this, some of them close enough to reach over and touch it, and not one of them has ever said a single word about it.

http://www.fotofriend.com/app/image...511039/0/8f66db7898eb8269df5a7282a6d4c584.jpg This was the position I had in mind for mine. I'd like to be able to untuck my shirt though, not to mention wear jackets in the winter. Is yours ever covered by clothes/bags/etc? Has that been a problem? The system I use to attach it is fairly bulky, but if I wear a jacket it would be fairly concealed. Short of getting a bigger knife or taking up the track suit look, I'm not sure there's much I can do to carry it in a less-concealed position.
 
http://www.fotofriend.com/app/image...511039/0/8f66db7898eb8269df5a7282a6d4c584.jpg This was the position I had in mind for mine. I'd like to be able to untuck my shirt though, not to mention wear jackets in the winter. Is yours ever covered by clothes/bags/etc? Has that been a problem? The system I use to attach it is fairly bulky, but if I wear a jacket it would be fairly concealed. Short of getting a bigger knife or taking up the track suit look, I'm not sure there's much I can do to carry it in a less-concealed position.
Looking at that picture, it is my firm opinion that if you were to cover the knife with a shirt or jacket that it would be considered "concealed" under the law. Remember that prosecutors couldn't care less about how we want to carry our knives, or our wardrobe preferences, or how we choose to dress depending on the weather. They won't care why a fixed-blade was concealed, only that it was concealed. And they will charge you accordingly.

And if a person thinks that all they have to do is say that their clothing accidentally covered their knife, that the wind blew their shirt, jacket, etc, and that such a story will set them free, they should think again. Never expect the cops, or a prosecutor, or a jury, to believe anything you say, because they don't have to, and they are inclined not to. Many people in our society, including many cops and prosecutors, hold a very negative view of people carrying knives, and might take any opportunity to put one behind bars if that person is caught in violation of the law.

As for myself, I NEVER allow any article of clothing to cover my knife. I would stop carrying a fixed-blade before I allowed my clothing to cover my knife. I made the sheath I use specifically so that I can carry my knife in full view and without any chance of it being covered by my jacket. When I'm in a public place, I either keep the bottom of my jacket zipped so that it won't swing open and cover my knife, or I take the jacket off entirely. And when I carry my fixed-blade I always wear my shirt tucked into my pants.

As far as a fixed-blade being covered by something a person is carrying (bag, box, etc), this would not be considered "concealed" under the law because the knife is not being intentionally hidden from sight. Once again this is an area where INTENT comes into play. It is not necessary for a fixed-blade carried upon ones person to be clearly and openly visible to everyone at all times, you just can't do something to intentionally hide it from view (like cover it with a shirt or jacket). There are many things that might prevent a cop from seeing ones openly-carried knife- your arm might be in the way, or the cop might be on your left side and you are wearing the knife on your right side, or lighting might cast a shadow over the knife, or the knife might blend in with ones clothing, but these are not examples of "concealment" because the knife is still being worn openly and there is no clear INTENT to hide it from view.

Unfortunately, to avoid the risk of arrest, prosecution, and all the unpleasantness, personal cost, and possible penalties that go along with such things, it is necessary that we carry our fixed-blades in a way that satisfies the law, even if it doesn't completely satisfy us. Because one thing is for sure, a prosecutor will be neither understanding nor merciful to us if we are caught violating the law.
 
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Geez that looks so uncomfortable to carry around. If you don't mind me asking why bother carrying a relatively large fixed blade in a city like San Diego? I could understand if you lived out in the country or mountains.

But no offense but it just seems very impractical and inconvenient when there are so many great options for folders out there. It kind of looks like you just want to use your fixed blade as a talisman to warn others not to mess with you and bring attention upon yourself.

Regardless, I am no one to tell others what to carry and how to carry it, much less question their motives so feel free to completely disregard my post.
 
Hmm, alright. It sounds like I should just stay with a folder then. A knife that would be high enough profile to never be at risk of covering would draw more attention than I want around here. Legal or not, it would certainly lead to a lot of questions, not to mention be unnecessarily intimidating to people I have to work with. What I want to carry is a <4", broadly legal straight edge that can be carried into public buildings without a fuss. Unfortunately that seems very hard to do here.

Anyone know of good other ways to carry a knife though? Pants pockets? Weird belt clip getups? Strap it to your leg like you're Laura Croft?
 
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Geez that looks so uncomfortable to carry around. If you don't mind me asking why bother carrying a relatively large fixed blade in a city like San Diego? I could understand if you lived out in the country or mountains.

But no offense but it just seems very impractical and inconvenient when there are so many great options for folders out there. It kind of looks like you just want to use your fixed blade as a talisman to warn others not to mess with you and bring attention upon yourself.

Regardless, I am no one to tell others what to carry and how to carry it, much less question their motives so feel free to completely disregard my post.
I have been carrying this knife for years. And I don't find it the least bit uncomfortable.

I carry a fixed-blade for many reasons, and I have used it for many tasks. I started carrying a fixed-blade while working a shipping dock. A fixed-blade proved to be a very handy and valuable tool to carry. Not only did I use it all day long for both light and heavy cutting (plastic pallet wrap, rope, heavy plastic banding straps), but I also used it for prying crates open when a prybar wasn't handy (the knife is almost 1/4" thick, D2 steel). Carrying my fixed-blade gave me two tools I needed right there on my side all day long. I never had to run to get a tool I needed, I never had to remember where I left a tool, and I never had to worry about someone picking up a tool I put down and walking off with it. It was always on my belt, I always knew exactly where it was, and I never had to worry about it getting "lost". Carrying a single tool that could perform all of the tasks I needed to perform made my job a lot easier.

I worked that job for several years and got hooked on how useful and valuable a heavy duty fixed-blade can be, so I started carrying it everywhere. I like knowing that I always have such a capable tool in my possession, and I use it on a regular basis.

I am now self-employed (construction) and my fixed-blade is a tool that sees regular use on construction sites. Not only is it a cutting tool for both light and heavy materials, and a prybar, but it also serves as a chisel when I have to shave off the edge of some drywall, or cut away some wood framing.

It kind of looks like you just want to use your fixed blade as a talisman to warn others not to mess with you and bring attention upon yourself.
And you based this opinion from just one picture? Wow. Perhaps you didn't actually read my post, like where I repeatedly advised people to obey the letter of the law and not do things that might get them arrested. Not exactly the type of person who would carry a knife to scare people. Nor the type of person who would carry a knife to get attention.

And for someone who claims that he doesn't question the motives as to why a person carries the knife they carry, I'd say that you've done a thorough job of questioning mine.
 
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@killgar: after reading many of your posts, I find them to be refreshingly thought out and highly informative; and I appreciate it. Regarding fixed blade knives, again I was told conflicting interpretations of CA state law, and while I tend to not carry one on my person so as not to attract undue attention that shouldn't be the sole reason stopping me. The length of blade isn't the question so much as the type. After reading state law (not good with obfuscating and quasi-contradictory legalese) it would seem it *may* be legal to carry a double edged fixed blade dagger or T-handled push dagger so long as it's in a sheath an unconcealed. The fact that any fixed blade is a dagger or dirk under certain circumstances seems to add to the confusion. Again, your interpretation would be appreciated!
 
@killgar: after reading many of your posts, I find them to be refreshingly thought out and highly informative; and I appreciate it. Regarding fixed blade knives, again I was told conflicting interpretations of CA state law, and while I tend to not carry one on my person so as not to attract undue attention that shouldn't be the sole reason stopping me. The length of blade isn't the question so much as the type. After reading state law (not good with obfuscating and quasi-contradictory legalese) it would seem it *may* be legal to carry a double edged fixed blade dagger or T-handled push dagger so long as it's in a sheath an unconcealed. The fact that any fixed blade is a dagger or dirk under certain circumstances seems to add to the confusion. Again, your interpretation would be appreciated!
Thanks. I do my best to share my knowledge of California knife law. The way I see it, if I can help someone avoid experiencing the unpleasantness of the criminal justice system by sharing my knowledge and experience, then it's worth the time I spend typing. Also, I place a high value on exercising my freedoms under the law, and I hate to see people deny themselves their legal freedoms because they have received inaccurate legal information.

As far as the law goes, it's important to know that unless the written penal code specifically defines an object or action as illegal, that it isn't illegal. That's how the law works. Generally, the penal code doesn't describe what is legal (it would be impossible for the law to describe every type, size, and design of legal knife), instead, when writing the law, lawmakers typically focus on what is illegal.

In regards to fixed-blades in California, there is nothing in the CA penal code that imposes a limit on the length of ones fixed-blade. There is nothing in the CA penal code that says it is illegal to openly carry a double-edged fixed-blade (in fact, there is no mention of "double-edged" knives, or knives with two edges, anywhere in the entire CA penal code). There is nothing in the CA penal code that says that "push daggers", "punch daggers", "palm daggers" or any such type of knife are illegal to openly carry in California.

By omission, what that all means is, there is no blade length limit on fixed-blades under state law (local laws may vary), it is legal to openly carry double-edged fixed-blades, and it is legal to openly carry "push daggers". California law is very specific about what items are illegal to carry CONCEALED, but there are no such restrictions on fixed-blades that are carried openly (this is, in my opinion, one of the great things about California).

As far as the California penal codes use of the words "dirk" and "dagger", what they are referring to are items that can be used as "stabbing weapons" (CA pc 16470). While many people define a "dagger" as a double-edged knife, my Websters dictionary defines a "dagger" as a stabbing weapon, with no mention of edges. Since the law is very much a matter of technical detail, it wouldn't surprise me if lawmakers relied on dictionary definitions when writing the law, instead of "socially popular" terminology or slang. Under California law, "dirks" and "daggers" are only regarded as illegal if they are carried CONCEALED (CA pc 21310).

One of the rare instances where the CA penal code describes something that is legal is CA pc 20200. That statute says that knives worn openly, suspended from the waist of the wearer are not considered concealed, and are therefore legal. This is a valuable law for those of us who openly carry fixed-blades because it specifically exempts the open carry of fixed-blades from what California law defines as illegal. CA pc 20200 is the statute that I carry in my wallet.
 
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