Forge De Laguiole's answer to a question about gaps... a difference in perspective

[markksr]

...
The fixation on "fit and finish" on knife forums (and bike forums) is, technically speaking, mostly lunacy. It's something the average person can "see" so they discuss ad nauseum even if a) it makes no difference in terms of performance or b) is actually there to help with performance.

....

Yep...

 

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

One of the traits a Forge de Laguiole brings to the table that most modern made pocket knives no longer offer (but was common long ago), is a forged blade. Here Forge de Laguiole explains their decision to go with French made T12 steel, and some info about this material (which they forge into the blades they use for their Laguiole knives...

http://www.forge-de-laguiole.com/en/content/50-steel-blades

Again, these knives offer traits that others do not, and vice versa... I personally love the diversity

 

[FLymon]

The gaps in question don't look designed in, they look sloppy. Like what you get when you don't take the time to get a uniform fit. Even if a gap were part of the original design it would have no need of being that wide and inconsistent. Wider at one end? Once the parts don't touch, they don't touch. Separating them further doesn't accomplish anything.

Obviously gappy knives are not the end of the world, but I for one value the form at least as much as the function when it comes to my pocket knives. I don't like gappy knives so I don't value them any more than I would value say, a shirt with a pocket sewed noticeably askew. Assuming it's not sewn on sideways or upside down it would still function as a pocket, but I wouldn't buy it.

 

[slide13]

Big gaps are obviously not desirable, but a small gap that lets just a touch of light through isn't a big deal. I think most knives, if inspected closely enough with a bright light, will have some sort of gap. I've seen gaps like that in knives from the very best and most famous makers in the world. We obsess to much over insignificant details, but I admit to being guilty of doing it myself, it's a hard impulse to ignore.

 

[Fanglekai]

If we cared only about performance I don't think we'd buy knives with exotic wood handles or choice pieces of stag. Part of the enjoyment of owning and using knives is their inherent aesthetic appeal. I get a sense of pleasure when I look at the African Blackwood on my GEC #48 or the ACSB on my Queen mini trapper. No idea why, but I do. Large gaps are aesthetically unpleasing to me. On lower end knives I don't mind them, but I prefer tighter construction to minimize them for aesthetic reasons. I don't find any difference in actual use between my knives with very little gaps and those with slightly more gaps. It's definitely not a performance issue IMHO as long as the gaps aren't large enough to cause problems with function. It's purely an aesthetic issue, but I do like how nice a knife looks with the back all nice and flush. YMMV and all that of course.

 

[shecky]

Meh. I stayed away from the maker after reading that tripe. Though thankfully it seems that the reputable Laguiole makers have moved past 440A and now prefer to use Sandvik 12C27 for their blades.

This is a perfect example of the kind of bean counting we knife nuts like to indulge, which is simultaneously pointless for anything other than endlessly discussing on an internet forum. 12C27 is as "low end" and common as 440A, especially in Europe, where it's also usually run at about the same hardness. And I defy anyone to tell the difference between the two. The two steels are damn near the same thing in most implementations.

I agree, the gaps are fuel for knife nut musings on the internet, but are of absolutely no consequence as far as performance is concerned. Where different companies and standards are concerned, vive la différence.

 

[knarfeng]

I don't see a performance difference between 440A and 12C27 if both are at the same hardness. It is possible to run 440A at 58-59.

 

[kamagong]

Perhaps, but I've been able to get a finer edge on the 12C27 blade I had compared to 440A. Granted I was working with a small sample size, 1:1, but it's my experience. Whether or not my negative experience was attributable to heat treatment or the inherent composition of the steel I can't tell you, but it is what it is. That doesn't make my experience any less real or valid.

- Christian

 

[knarfeng]

I'm not saying your experience is invalid. But I am saying that you are ascribing the cause incorrectly.

You said that the 440A was ~55 and the 12C27 was at ~58. That difference in hardness is causing the performance difference. It isn't the alloy.

 

[Humppa]

Well - gaps are in many knives. It doesn´t depend on where the knife was made. For many people that carry a knife and real fans and knife nuts won´t even realise the gap(s).

But for those who look closely on their tools and it doesn´t depend on what it is - any defect will come to daylight by time. Sooner or later at least. I would consider a gap as a defect in many ways. First at production itself, later on quality control etc etc. But (!!) if the gap won´t have an influence on the action of the item (tool) it wouldn´t bother me. If it will cause wobble or any other things that would make it not as useful or safe in action it will bother me.

I recently bought a Laguiole by R. David and it doesn´t show any gaps at all. So for the Forge de Laguiole are gaps between liners and springs a normal way. But on my R. David no gaps are shown. Following Forge de Laguiole my R. David would have defect as the spring and its tension would not work correctly.

Now I´m a little confused...

 

[Will Power]

All interesting points.

As knife enthusiasts, we are bound to apply stricter or possibly arbitrary criteria when judging knives. The general public wont. Just remember when we first started getting knives, as Mescladis pointed out in her post - the blind enthusiasm for just about anything etc. Laguioles, being made of diverse materials and especially those with filework may exhibit gaps. My Fontenille-Patauds are locking Laguioles, they have no gaps and no play whatsoever, impressive yes, they cost a lot too... Let's talk about our pet hatreds in knife finish for a while: if you get two knives more or less the same, one has gaps the other doesn't, which will you prefer? Obvious, and obviously it does not effect performance (unless really serious). It could be blade-play for some, gaps for others, matching scales (a hard thing with natural materials), pull, snap, or my particular hatred non flush springs on open or close. True, it may not impact on 'performance' but if that was all I was looking for then I'd stick to one cheap or disposable knife. Raised springs feel unpleasant in the hand, they look awful and in my op they show shoddy execution. Other people may not be bothered. The other question is of course price, the more you pay does NOT guarantee the better the knife will be, but it certainly makes you resentful if a costly knife arrives with a raft of finish issues.

At least the company BOTHERED to reply to the OP's e-mail and they have to write in a language other than theirs. I can think of a couple of companies who have not bothered to respond to my enquiries (they both make knives that I have a lot of but their attitude is not so wonderful...). However, I hope the OP gets to use this knife and like it, the Laguiole is a fine type of knife, warts and all.

Thanks, Will

 

[pinnah]

I guess you can rationalize anything if you try hard enough. I remember reading a few years ago a conversation between one of the Laguiole makers and someone who had just bought one of its knives. (Caveat -- this is strictly hearsay, so take everything I write with a grain of salt). He sent a question to customer service asking about the steel used. This is a paraphrased summary of that conversation.

"Why does your company stick to using 440A, with a RC hardness in the mid-50s?"

"People use our knives to cut bread, cheese, salami, and such. You don't need some hard super steel for that."

Meh. I stayed away from the maker after reading that tripe. Though thankfully it seems that the reputable Laguiole makers have moved past 440A and now prefer to use Sandvik 12C27 for their blades. It might be time for me to give the pattern a try. I wonder what rockwell hardness they're at now?

- Christian

Heh. Mid 50s? That would mean FdL blades are comparable to Victorinox Inox, which, according to Victorinox are hardened to 55-56 Rc. Want some fun? Suggest on the forum that Victorinox runs their stainless too soft. Just be sure to put on your Nomex undies first. "Gaggilions of happy SAK owners can't be wrong."

Fwiw, I just checked my French Opinel and happy, happy, it has no gaps. Obviously this means my Opinel is better than a Forge de Laguille. ;^)

 

[Jack Black]

This has turned into a very interesting thread

I would tend to disagree with that... The French knifemakers and knife afficionados I know are just like you all and consider gaps as a defect . I also consider gaps as a defect. But I can't speak for everyone in France owning a knife ^^, so maybe some people don't care about that...

Point taken Mescladis. I definitely want to avoid generalizing about a whole country or worse continent. But as Jack inferred Knife aficionados, American, European, South American, African, or Asian probably amount to much much much less than 1 percent of the population. I imagine that many years ago when the industrial process was still smaller and people more regularly depended on a quality knife for work etc the companies were able to oversee and get each knife to a better standard. As time wore on and a lot of these companies moved to third party manufacturers with less oversight some of these details probably started to be overlooked as they weren't a problem for most people anyways. Companies like GEC and Canal Street and others are renaissance companies. They were started by knife nuts who appreciated the finest details of old well constructed knives, so of course they wanted to insist on these details in their productions. FDL may be something of a Renaissance company, having started up 1987 to continue a tradition of knife making in the town of Laguiole, but they have a two tier market. There's one tier which is served by their Standard series, which is a well built beautiful knife but which is produced through more automatic processes. The Laguiole pattern is so iconic that I imagine a lot of people who buy this tier of production just want it for that status, but want a reliable and usable knife as well. Its just easier and less costly to create a knife with smooth action if you allow a little gap between the spring and liner. There's less need to have a person finagling the delicate line between smooth and impossible to open. Then they have a line for the aficionados who care more about this type of stuff for its own sake.

I certainly wasn't intending to insult French cutlers, or knife buffs like yourself Mescladis :thumbup: As Lemmy says, knife aficionados are a very small percentage of the customer base of the larger cutlery firms, and I doubt that most people buying a relatively inexpensive knife would think to check the back of the knife for light, more likely they will just look at the overall appearance, and perhaps inspect the edge. Similarly, I think that if I raised the issue with jobbing cutlers in Sheffield, they'd be a little non-plussed. They'd understand me complaining about a dull edge or blade play, or perhaps even large gaps, but as to the smaller slivers of light we hope not to see, I suspect they might think I was a little crazy.

Can somebody make a case that minor gaps between the liner and back spring negatively affects the performance or durabilty if the knife in any way?

If not, aren't we firmly into the territory of aesthetic sensibilities for the sake of aesthetics, which can vary legitimately?

Assuming the gaps are very minor, personally I do think this is an entirely aesthetic concern. That's not to say it's unimportant of course, not at all. I do love the old knives I have that are still tight as a bath-tub after all the years. However, if I see the odd bit of light on a knife I've not paid a great deal of money for, it's of far less concern to me than other issues.

 

[pinnah]

Similarly, I think that if I raised the issue with jobbing cutlers in Sheffield, they'd be a little non-plussed. They'd understand me complaining about a dull edge or blade play, or perhaps even large gaps, but as to the smaller slivers of light we hope not to see, I suspect they might think I was a little crazy.

I am reminded of what the late (great) Sheldon Brown wrote on the subject of adjusting loose ball bottom brackets (I've just dated myself).

"Judging the adjustment is basically the same as with wheel bearings -- perfection consists in having no play and no friction. Perfection is, of course, impossible in this vale of tears, so the best you can do is to minimize both. "
http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbadj.html

Sheldon's preferred approach is how I was taught (by Chuck Harris) which is, better to have a bit of play than to adjust them too tight.

 

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

Neat video, and though it's been out a while, I'm sure not everyone has seen it.
Forge de Laguiole...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV8G03qY5W4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Another video, also kinda neat...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAK4d8zKvyQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Lemmy Caution]

I am reminded of what the late (great) Sheldon Brown wrote on the subject of adjusting loose ball bottom brackets (I've just dated myself).

"Judging the adjustment is basically the same as with wheel bearings -- perfection consists in having no play and no friction. Perfection is, of course, impossible in this vale of tears, so the best you can do is to minimize both. "
http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbadj.html
Sheldon's preferred approach is how I was taught (by Chuck Harris) which is, better to have a bit of play than to adjust them too tight.

Glad folks have picked up on the finer philosophical notes this thread was intended to arouse.

I think it is just that FDL's standard series uses more automation in the process particularly in the fitting of spring to liner and as Pinnah notes its safer to leave some gap than to produce an impossible to open hunk of metal. The Laguiole is plenty tight already! The fit and finish is clearly humanized on the rest of the knife (polished horn, pins, bolsters, etc).

For fun I'm thinking of ordering one of the Laguiole kits from Honore Durand. You can choose the XC75 blade and then put the whole thing together yourself. Maybe I could see if I could do it well without gaps. Anyone have any impressions of these kits? Trying to found somewhere to get one without paying the price of the kit in shipping.

 

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

Excuse my ignorance, but watching one of the videos on FDL, I noticed them placing some knives, (that already seemed assembled), on a rack which an automated machine moved up and over a tank of some sort of moving fluid. The machine then submerged these knives into it. I can only guess that this is done to clean out the knives of shavings/filing debris... which should be easy with the gaps to allow good flow, lol!
Anyhow, is that the purpose of the submersion? Thanks in advance

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I'm not saying your experience is invalid. But I am saying that you are ascribing the cause incorrectly.

You said that the 440A was ~55 and the 12C27 was at ~58. That difference in hardness is causing the performance difference. It isn't the alloy.

This.^

The two steels are essentially similar in elemental makeup. If splitting hairs, 440A's carbon content is slightly higher than 12C27, and chromium higher as well. On paper alone, that should give 440A a slight advantage in edge-holding potential, corrosion resistance and wear resistance. In terms of real-world edge holding at equal hardness, there shouldn't be any significant difference between them. Sandvik's process reduces impurities in their steels, which lends greater consistency in performance (this is probably some incentive for mfrs to switch to it, as the steel should be more predictable); but if the 440A is also obtained from quality sources, consistency shouldn't be an issue anyway.

Assuming the purity of both steels is decent, the heat treat is really the only thing making a significant difference in RC hardness (edge holding), grain size (ability to take a fine edge) and toughness (resistance to breakage). This would be essentially similar to differences seen in edge holding of Case's 420HC (mid-50s HRC), versus Buck's 420HC (high-50s HRC), due to differences in heat treat alone.


David

 

[Lemmy Caution]

I recently bought a Laguiole by R. David and it doesn´t show any gaps at all. So for the Forge de Laguiole are gaps between liners and springs a normal way. But on my R. David no gaps are shown. Following Forge de Laguiole my R. David would have defect as the spring and its tension would not work correctly.

Now I´m a little confused...

Hey Andii - Just curious - Is the R. David you purchased from the traditional line or the Prestige line? This may impact the difference in production standards. Also curious because I'm looking at an R. David.

 

[Humppa]

Being honest - I have no idea. But here is a pic of it. According to how it looks like it´s the traditional lineup but due to its high price it could have been the prestige line....