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Bad Fort Henry Custom Knives - $615 Lost

Why do people accept a policy if it is lost in international shipping but totally reject that when shipping domestic?

The fact is the seller is responsible to get the buyer what was paid for.
 
AVigil said:
Why do people accept a policy if it is lost in international shipping but totally reject that when shipping domestic?

The fact is the seller is responsible to get the buyer what was paid for.
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Comes down to lack of buying power of the international customer, lack of knowledge of the international shipping market and lack of confidence that it will arrive at it's destination. International shipping is more complicated than domestic. Some countries are extremely better than others, but most are not going to spend the time and energy to sort that out. For some you can not get insurance or tracking and many times the buyer wants a low value placed on the item to avoid taxes, which would negate any insurance. Add to that the time delay and extra hands it travels through and most would just as soon skip the deal completely. Others will do it only at the buyers risk. Since the international customer is a small portion of this market and the item would likely sell domestically without them they have little leverage in the deal.
It is a not so perfect answer to a problem and I certainly feel for the non US buyer, but only at a certain risk to my own well being.
Seems registered mail is the best way to succeed., but I lack knowledge on exactly how (cost & packaging)to do it right.
Out of small number of international transactions I have lost 4 or more. I did pay full or partial (when I owed nothing)depending on terms. I feel bad for anyone not getting what they bought. I prefer to avoid international, but can get talked into it.
Out of hundreds of US transactions I have lost 0
No problems when buyer uses a shipping service, and will gladly ship to one and guarantee delivery to that destination(shipper).

My references are all to individual sales rather than those of a business such as in the OP's case
 
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Good, seasoned businessmen (people who do this for a living) know how to conduct transactions so that transactions are mutually beneficial, and they will refuse a transaction if either party will be left stranded with nothing and no recourse. (It appears the OP was dealing will a small-time business operator who does not understand the value of good business practice, IMO, and takes the easy way out, even if it means "screw you" customer. This is easy to rationalize on the sellers part, but a well-thought-out business model will find a way to avoid or resolve these issues, not just blow off the customer or maintain a blanket disclaimer.)

I buy internationally--things that may be lost, stolen, or destroyed in transit or at customs. Nearly every seller I've worked with will replace the items if they are not received in three weeks whether I had tracking, didn't have tracking, had free shipping, paid extra for shipping. It's good business to honor a sale. If it's too risky, don't sell to me.
 
Thanks for posting the thread.
I too am an international customer when buying from Fort Henry, and although all my purchases from Vince have been carefree so far it's unlikely I'll be making another one now.

The fact that you were essentially hung out to dry is not acceptable to me, I do agree that they are within their personal right to disclaim themselves from liability prior to purchase in this manner. However it is a really low way of doing business. Even if Vince had offered you a credit at the store - OR SOMETHING. It would have been better than nothing. Washing hands of the situation is unacceptable.
I won't be making any more purchases from Vince in light of this, which is a shame but I can't support a storefront that behaves this way.

Thanks again.
 
I've only had one transaction with Fort Henry and everything went well. It was a domestic deal within the US so the situation was different, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them again.
 
So let me see if I understand this. The OP lives in Singapore. He orders a knife from Fort Henry Knives (FHK) and they have an obvious disclaimer about shipping overseas and assume zero liability, yet the OP orders anyway.
Then, when the knife is stolen somewhere in the delivery cycle, it's suddenly up to Fort Henry to make it right?
So let's look the other way. I've shipped overseas in the beginning. Out of the first 4 transactions I had, 3 of them went bad. I've never shipped overseas since then and won't ever.
Now, if a customer had convinced me to ship overseas, and I explained that I don't because of the aforementioned issues, and the customer says, I'll assume ALL of the liability for the shipment, so I go ahead with the deal, and ship it, then if it disappears, or gets held up in customs, or any number of things happen, then I'm not liable for it.
Now, if FHK said they would file complaints or claims with the postal entities and didn't, then shame on them for lying to their customer.
Where I'm lost is that FHK would ship there and not insure the package which would give them recourse but again, they do have a disclaimer.
Also, for those saying they acted improperly even though they have the disclaimer about international shipping, then please explain what the disclaimer would be for and why you would have it, if you're expected to refund international shipments every time one goes missing? They wouldn't be in business for long I can assure you.
I'm a little torn here but my thoughts tend to side with FHK on this one. Maybe they could have been more helpful or even cordial, but, they have that disclaimer there for a reason.
 
Hale Storm said:
So let me see if I understand this. The OP lives in Singapore. He orders a knife from Fort Henry Knives (FHK) and they have an obvious disclaimer about shipping overseas and assume zero liability, yet the OP orders anyway.
Then, when the knife is stolen somewhere in the delivery cycle, it's suddenly up to Fort Henry to make it right?
So let's look the other way. I've shipped overseas in the beginning. Out of the first 4 transactions I had, 3 of them went bad. I've never shipped overseas since then and won't ever.
Now, if a customer had convinced me to ship overseas, and I explained that I don't because of the aforementioned issues, and the customer says, I'll assume ALL of the liability for the shipment, so I go ahead with the deal, and ship it, then if it disappears, or gets held up in customs, or any number of things happen, then I'm not liable for it.
Now, if FHK said they would file complaints or claims with the postal entities and didn't, then shame on them for lying to their customer.
Where I'm lost is that FHK would ship there and not insure the package which would give them recourse but again, they do have a disclaimer.
Also, for those saying they acted improperly even though they have the disclaimer about international shipping, then please explain what the disclaimer would be for and why you would have it, if you're expected to refund international shipments every time one goes missing? They wouldn't be in business for long I can assure you.
I'm a little torn here but my thoughts tend to side with FHK on this one. Maybe they could have been more helpful or even cordial, but, they have that disclaimer there for a reason.
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I didn't ask for a refund, and I didn't put the blame or responsibility on them. I didn't go against their disclaimer. I don't know where you got that from. Maybe you should read through again.

My complaint is simply the lack of basic decency to file the report they said they would and to respond to my request for any paper work they had. I think the fact that they couldn't be bothered, and didn't care, shows a lot. I think that's valuable information that would help others decide whether they'd like to shop there. You may disagree.
 
"
What happens if an international package is lost?
To initiate inquiries for undelivered or damaged articles, call the International Research Group at 800-222-1811. If an inquiry determines that a package is lost, the Postal Service will send a claim packet to the U.S. sender with instructions on how to file a claim."

The sender has to file the claim. The sender is the one paid on the claim not the receiver.

A "Disclaimer" is just words and not take away the rights of a purchaser.

Just google it. The seller is responsible for the package until it is received by the purchaser.

If a business does not want to accept that liability then do not sell internationally
 
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AVigil said:
Why do people accept a policy if it is lost in international shipping but totally reject that when shipping domestic?

The fact is the seller is responsible to get the buyer what was paid for.
Click to expand...

The fact is the seller is responsible to get the buyer what was paid for.
The seller has a responsibility to make a reasonable effort to get the item purchased to the buyer. The seller cannot guarantee what a third party shipper will do. In my case, I had no control over Denmark customs sitting on a small package for three months. Denmark customs was a total black hole but, my package did finally arrive in the buyer's mailbox. Yes, I tracked it and saw it go in and eventually come out of the 'black hole'. o_O

The seller really has no control over delivery outside of the USA. Sure, the EU countries are pretty reliable and generally don't present any problems other than slow delivery, beyond those borders things get sketchy fast in a lot of areas.

Try making an insurance claim on an item shipped internationally. Most Asian and Mid-East countries will not honor insurance claims for reasons that may or may not be valid, regardless the shipper and receiver won't be paid an insurance claim.
 
S Sid Post

The buyer also has no control over postage as well nor should they fund the lost package for a business.

Customers are not an insurance company who pays for the seller for lost items. They paid for a knife, they need to get that knife be it domestic or international.
 
"A "Disclaimer" is just words and not take away the rights of a purchaser." Yes, as a matter of law it can. That is the entire purpose of disclaimers. Some states have barred some disclaimers, but "F.O.B. shipper" - shifting the risk of loss to the buyer- is a routine, enforceable term of a sales contract.

"The fact is the seller is responsible to get the buyer what was paid for." Legally speaking, that assertion is true if that is the contract between the buyer and the seller.

So let us say the seller solicits an offer to buy a knife with the risk of law during shipment on the buyer - he has an obvious disclaimer on the sales page that says, in effect, "Once I ship it, the risk of loss is on you, Buyer." Such a loss-shifting term is expressly contemplated by the law. The buyer can make such an offer, shifting the risk of loss in shipment from the seller to that buyer; he can decline to make that offer, and no sale of contract exists; or he could make a counteroffer: "The risk of loss is on the seller until delivery." The Seller then has a choice: 1) no deal except on my terms; or 2) OK, I accept risk of loss in shipment until delivery.
 
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I'd like to propose a workaround for international buyers, especially buying from the US when shipping with USPS -- request the package be shipped with "Registered" service, which costs $16 (as of Jan 2020). Registered is the MOST RELIABLE USPS service, and is honored by ALL countries which provide a similar reciprocal service (it is mostly known by the same name). It is an additional service on top of whatever USPS shipping option you select, so you can have USPS First Class + Registered (works cheapest), or USPS Priority Mail + Registered, and so on. US sellers will pay an additional $16 for the Registered service. Tampering with a Registered package is a Federal offence in the US, and almost all over the world, and (in the old days) a register with signatures was maintained as the package changed hands.

Note that USPS PO may discourage you from using this service in order to sell you more expensive services, and the fact that the PO has to do more electronic paperwork, and additional processing of the package (stamping the tape seams, see below). The PO may also tell you that Registered is only guaranteed till the package leaves US shore, which is true to an extent. However, if the recipient country has similar reciprocal service, rest assured the package will make its way either to the buyer or back to the seller. NO EXCEPTIONS, REGISTERED IS HOT STUFF IN ALL COUNTRIES.

This also means an increased burden on the US seller -- he/she not only has to physically handover the package to the PO, but also follow certain packaging guidelines (it cannot have plastic tape, as every seam will be stamped by the PO for tamper-detection). Please see the thread in consolidated sticky list above that explains this process.

In a nutshell, total peace of mind and most economical way to ship USPS international packages = USPS First Class Package + Registered service
 
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choombak said:
I'd like to propose a workaround for international buyers, especially buying from the US when shipping with USPS -- request the package be shipped with "Registered" service, which costs about $15. Registered is the MOST RELIABLE USPS service, and is honored by ALL countries which provide a similar reciprocal service (it is mostly known by the same name). It is an additional service on top of whatever USPS shipping option you select, so you can have USPS First Class + Registered (works cheapest), or USPS Priority Mail + Registered, and so on. US sellers will pay an additional ~$15 for the Registered service. Tampering with a Registered package is a Federal offence in the US, and almost all over the world, and (in the old days) a register with signatures was maintained as the package changed hands.

Note that USPS PO may discourage you from using this service in order to sell you more expensive services, and the fact that the PO has to do more electronic paperwork, and additional processing of the package (stamping the tape seams, see below). The PO may also tell you that Registered is only guaranteed till the package leaves US shore, which is true to an extent. However, if the recipient country has similar reciprocal service, rest assured the package will make its way either to the buyer or back to the seller. NO EXCEPTIONS, REGISTERED IS HOT STUFF IN ALL COUNTRIES.

This also means an increased burden on the US seller -- he/she not only has to physically handover the package to the PO, but also follow certain packaging guidelines (it cannot have plastic tape, as every seam will be stamped by the PO for tamper-detection). Please see the thread in consolidated sticky list above that explains this process.

In a nutshell, total peace of mind and most economical way to ship USPS international packages = USPS First Class Package + Registered service
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I have to admit I had never heard of this, but you can bet I will use it the next time I have an international customer! Thank you!
 
I recently had a international buyer offer to buy a knife I had for sale if I would ship it to him even though I had clearly stated in my thread I did not ship internationally. The buyer stated he had received several shipments from the USA with no problems and offered to pay for the extra shipping cost. I did entertain the idea enough to speak with a postal employee who told me that they did not recommend me shipping the knife if I was concerned about it being lost or stolen in shipment because it was possible I could be held responsible and have to refund the buyer. Due to the location I could not purchase insurance on the package so it would just be a gamble. The whole experience just reconfirmed my no shipping international policy. It’s just not worth the risk in my opinion.
 
vwb563 said:
I recently had a international buyer offer to buy a knife I had for sale if I would ship it to him even though I had clearly stated in my thread I did not ship internationally. The buyer stated he had received several shipments from the USA with no problems and offered to pay for the extra shipping cost. I did entertain the idea enough to speak with a postal employee who told me that they did not recommend me shipping the knife if I was concerned about it being lost or stolen in shipment because it was possible I could be held responsible and have to refund the buyer. Due to the location I could not purchase insurance on the package so it would just be a gamble. The whole experience just reconfirmed my no shipping international policy. It’s just not worth the risk in my opinion.
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The advice of the postal employee would have been the same regardless of what you were shipping. ;-) I have been at both ends -- as an international buyer outside US, and now in the US as an international shipper. Is it more effort and risk to ship international? It surely is, especially if the receiving country has no reliable postal system. But my original knife hobby was bootstrapped by sellers who took the risk and shipped me knives, which I could only dream of possessing. I just pay it forward, and willingly accept that risk. If you follow certain good practices, reliable shipping service, and employ some detective work (like searching the buyer's history on the forum, the internet, etc.), the transaction will be no riskier than shipping domestic.

Just giving my perspective, and in no way pointing a finger at anyone. It is a hobby that I enjoy immensely, and love to allow others do the same, to the limits of my various risk tolerances. :)
 
I would be pissed off forever and a day if this were me. Not necessarily at the maker, who in all likelihood is not going to send empty boxes and isn't a fly-by-night seller, but I would not let this go so easy. My guess is someone stole it en route. Are you totally out of options?
Can you (politely) ask them to file with USPS again? Insure the box for $600 and ship it back to them, effing USPS can eat it.
 
Motega said:
I would be pissed off forever and a day if this were me. Not necessarily at the maker, who in all likelihood is not going to send empty boxes and isn't a fly-by-night seller, but I would not let this go so easy. My guess is someone stole it en route. Are you totally out of options?
Can you (politely) ask them to file with USPS again? Insure the box for $600 and ship it back to them, effing USPS can eat it.
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It’s not on Zieba. The knife was in Fort Henry’s possession when sold, and I’ve dealt with him directly for other knives and he’s always been good to me.

I’ve given up on Fort Henry ever working with me on filing a claim or report. I sent them multiple emails over several months, and they stopped responding (I doubt they ever filed the first report, though they claim to, and nothing came of it).
I also don’t have the option to send a package via USPS, at least not directly. I’m outside the US so any packages I send would go through my local postal services, and then be received by USPS, and vice versa. My local post, Singpost, contacted USPS. Both seemed like they wanted to help and investigate further, but needed Fort Henry to file a report, which, according to USPS, they never did.

Besides, all of this was back in 2017/2018. It’s a little late to get anything done now. All I want at this point is to warn others about the attitude/lack of effort from Vince and Marie for customers when things don’t go well.
 
Well bro, if it comes down to it you can always ask me to act as a go-between if you need something sent securely from the US and I will be happy to help. I hate to read this kind of stuff but I can't think of a single thing to do now except to make sure we spread the message that EVERY EXPENSIVE KNIFE needs to be fully insured when being shipped. It's ridiculous that they didn't offer you that option unless I read the post wrong. Isn't half the point of declaring full value so that you have some recourse if some Thai postal or customs worker making $5 an hour steals your stuff? If you had acted within a week or so do yo think you could have figured out the chain of people that handled the package or would that be an exercise in futility?
Anyway, offer stands, if I can help you out I will give you all my personal details so you can rest assured that you have someone here that will allow you to purchase stuff in the US without worry. Sorry this happened to you.
 
Motega said:
Well bro, if it comes down to it you can always ask me to act as a go-between if you need something sent securely from the US and I will be happy to help. I hate to read this kind of stuff but I can't think of a single thing to do now except to make sure we spread the message that EVERY EXPENSIVE KNIFE needs to be fully insured when being shipped. It's ridiculous that they didn't offer you that option unless I read the post wrong. Isn't half the point of declaring full value so that you have some recourse if some Thai postal or customs worker making $5 an hour steals your stuff? If you had acted within a week or so do yo think you could have figured out the chain of people that handled the package or would that be an exercise in futility?
Anyway, offer stands, if I can help you out I will give you all my personal details so you can rest assured that you have someone here that will allow you to purchase stuff in the US without worry. Sorry this happened to you.
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I appreciate the offer, though nowadays I usually use a forwarding service in the US that ships to me with insurance. I pay a fee, but it means that US sellers can treat it as a local sale, and I get my packages shipped securely.

And I did contact the post office immediately upon receiving the empty package. The box was brought to the post office before I even opened it, as I knew it was too light. The post office workers witnessed the box being opened and confirmed it was empty. Vince and Marie were also contacted the day I got the box. Correspondence with USPS through Singpost took a while, and trying to get Fort Henry to file a report and work with me took longer (and was never successful). I don't believe I could've done anything more than I did given the situation, which is why I use the insured forwarding service now for all expensive knives.
 
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