General Asian swords question

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W.T. Beck

Joined
Jul 9, 2001
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I have done some reading here and there and made some observations concerning the quality of swords made in Asia. I am hoping the more knowledgable members can confirm or refute these observations.

Here are my observations:

All India-made swords are junk. There is no good brand of swords which is made in India.

Except for Kris Cutlery, there are no good swords made in the Phillipines. Kris Cutlery swords are good users, good value, but not very authentic reproductions.

The HI Imports brand of khukuris from Nepal are excellent. All others are junk.

I've heard of two good Chinese brands, Hanwei (Paul Chen) and Bugei. Maybe the Cold Steel Chinese swords are OK.

The chief problem with the Asian swords is poor heat treatment. Most are made from recyled auto springs and similar steels which should make good blades, but because the recyling is not done properly the steel is no good.
 
...will get you into trouble.

Saying "all swords from India are junk is a generalization." Look at Shah Jahans site, which ahs many India made swords of exceptional beauty. I dunno that there intended to be used, but they look great. I di agree that Windlass in INdia is interested in numbers, not authentic heat treat or mass.

"No good swords made in Phillipines" -- Another generalization. There are many ancient or antique blades that were made there that are of exceptional craftsmanship. Kris Cutlery imports many of these venerable and beautiful (and functional, but that would be an abuse of the keris) blades, as seen on this site:
http://www.kriscutlery.com/Sandata/Keris/

Also, some of Kris cutlery's are authentically reporduced, such as their naginata blades, and spear heads. Also their daggers in european style are pretty accurate.

Himalayan Imports Khuks are excellent, it is true I own about 4 khuks from them. They certainly are the best you can get commercially, and will stand up to more abuse than the more battle-specialized sword. A khuk is like an axe and sword in a knife package. If you do buy a Khuk, you would do well to own one fron HI,because they are warrantied for life.

"The chief problem with the Asian swords is poor heat treatment."--once again a generalization. Better to say "The chief problem with some swords is poor heat treatment." Geography has little to do with improper heat treat.

"...because the recyling is not done properly the steel is no good." Well, this is a bit inaccurate. The deal is that Spring steel from recycle has a 'memeory' that keeps it in its shape. The metal has to be annealed so that the stresses are releived, and then shaping an tempering can be done. If you dont; relieve the stersses in the metal, (often a problem with stock removal over forging) your sword could have a stress problem, which could cause it to fail.

Paul Chen-- don't know much about the guy or his swords, just have a polearm he made that is a heavy beast. I'm gonna lighten it and reprofile it a bit to reduce weight.

Lotta stuff here, I know. Just take it as another's opinion, although I do own an actual Keris from Java, and Kris Cutlery items (about 5) and HI items (4).
 
Hello Ferrous Wheel,

Actually part of what I said came from a document I found on the internet that was far more general than my statements. For example, that document condemned all Phillipine made swords outright, whereas I mentioned that Kris Cutlery was an exception.

I guess I should have been more specific by defining what I consider to be a good sword. I was thinking in terms of a good sword being a functional one. So there might be attractive swords made in India, such as the Shah Jahan brand you mentioned, which might be good if what you want is a wallhanger. Still, I have to say that nowhere have I come across any statements claiming that any Indian manufacturer makes good functional swords.

I had read the details on what is wrong with the recycled steel used in Indian and the Phillipines. I just summarized what I had read rather than going into the specifics about annealing and steel "memory". I don't see where just stating that the recyling is not properly done constitutes an innacuracy.

So at this point I am not sure I said anything that was incorrect or truely innacurate. I probably should have said what I meant by a "good sword", and excluded swords designed for looks only, as well as historical swords.
 
Well, I went looking for that article I had read about most Far East swords being junk but could not find it. Anyhow, that article made very broad generalizations, although it did go into the details about poor annealing and heat treatment of Asian swords.

That author went farther than I did in condemning all swords made in India, Malaysia, and the Phillipines - with no exceptions. I mentioned that Kris Cutlery swords are the one good brand from the Phillipines. As for Malaysian swords, I have read nothing else about them so I did not include them in my observations.

If I have missed an Indian or other Phillipine company which makes good functional swords, I would like to know about them. However, whenever I have read comments about modern production Indian and Phillipine swords on the internet, only Kris Cutlery is mentioned as making good quality functional swords.
 
Kris Cutlery is the only company I know of making usable swords in the Philippines at this time. However, there are many makers in the Philippines that make traditional Filipino swords and bolos which are both functional and better looking than Kris Cutlery, in a much wider array of styles and sizes and often cheaper too. Another option is antique swords. The only problem is that you have to go there to get them<G>. I assume India might be the same way.

My dad got an antique Barong that is both bigger and better quality than my Kris Cutlery Barong for only $40.00 last time he was there.
 
I just felt that making a generalization based on nationality could get you into trouble, and although I do not personally know any smiths in India or Phillipines, I doubt that the art of smithing is totally lost in those locales.
Most likely, the best smith's work is retained by the royals in those locales, and not available for export. I know that is a fact in the Phillipines, as the royals get their smiths to work actual meteoric iron (iron-nickel composite) into the blades of keris, whereas most mid- to low-end cost blades use iron, steel, and nickel.

Keith
En Ferro Veritas
 
OK, there might be good blades made in India and Phillipines for local consumption. What I had in mind is the stuff I see for sale by US companies, like By the Sword, Museum Replicas, etc.

I noticed yesterday that By the Sword now has a line of Phillipine made swords called Generation 2, which they claim are users. They also claim to have tested the swords to prove this. However, I am not too sure what they describe as their testing really proves much. They claim they cut a couple of 2 x 4's, and then did blade to blade contact nine times. Doesn't sound like much of a test to me. Cliff Stamp wouldn't even be warmed up with that little bit of chopping.

So there might now be two brands of functional swords coming from the Phillipines, but I doubt it. I don't find By the Swords "tests" to be very convincing.
 
I went back and re-read By the Sword's claims about the Generation 2 swords, and found that they had cut "several" 2 X 4's - not "a couple" as I said above. Nevertheless, the description of their test does not sound like a very comprehensive one, compared to others I have read about.
 
From the sword styles of which I'm familiar, with the exceptions of the barong and bolo (people can't seem to agree whether the bolo is a sword or machete), swords are not meant to be machetes. They are meant for cutting people not chopping wood. Cliff Stamp's tests are pretty much knife abuse IMO. Sure, it is good to have a knife that will take abuse but I can't really see any reason to do what he does with knives at time even in survival situations. Look at the profile of a Busse knife. Notice how thick and wide it is, even close to the point. That is how to make a strong survival knife. A katana, for example, looks nothing like that. It is much longer and thinner, and would not make a good prybar. Even if you get a real Japanese one costing thousands it would probably not survive all the things Cliff does to a Busse. I'm planning on eventually buying a Cold Steel or Hanwei katana for something a bit nicer than my Kris Cutlery katanas. When I get it, I will not use it to clear brush, chop wood, pry open things, or dig. That is what machetes, axes, prybars, and shovels are for.
 
Hello Benjamin,

I think a heavy duty test is appropriate for Mideval sword replicas that are intended to be functional swords. Bear in mind that Mideval warriors wore steel armour, and engaged in fighting where swords crashed against swords.

Some brands of Mideval sword replicas come with dull edges and are specifically made for simulated combat, where swords come in contact with other swords.

The test described for the Generation 2 brand swords on the By the Sword website included nine steel to steel blows, which to me just doesn't seem like much for a real sword. In a Mideval battle, nine blows would likely occur in the first five minutes of the fight.
 
I bought a katana blade from Atlanta Cutlery that is mfgd. by Windlass in India. It seems ok for what I paid for it.($44 + shipping) and what I use it for, which is practice. The blade is carbon steel, has some spring to it, and holds somewhat of an edge. I have cut live mulberry and pine with it up to about an inch in diameter. So far so good. My impression is that the blade will hold an edge, but is a bit softer than desired. As this one serves my needs, which is practice, I'm not going to subject it to destructive tests. I wouldn't classify it as junk.
 
Hello scotjute,

I guess what I consider junk is a sword advertised simply as a sword, but then does not possess the strength, edge-holding, etc. of what the average "real" sword would have possessed at the time such swords were used for serious purposes. Unless the advertising for a sword explicitly states that it is for display only, practice only, parade wear, etc., then a sword should be judged by whether or not it performs as a true functional sword. Of course, this does not mean one cannot find some practical use for such a sword.

Just apply the same standard to other products, and I think you will agree. If you bought a TV and then the picture tube burned out after two months, you would likely call it "junk". If you bought a Yugo and the tranmission wore out after six months, you would likely call it "junk". Likewise, if a sword is advertised as a sword yet does perform to acceptable standards for a real functional sword, I see nothing wrong with calling it "junk".
 
i used to be a field man and hacked may way through the philippine jungle. my bias is obvious but i need to say this: in any rustic town in the philippines, there has to be at least one good smith who can forge a 10" blade from old files and leaf springs which, could possibly pass an ABS journeyman test. i'm sure the same is true in countries like india. i also know that a lot of balisongs and barongs exported to other countries are 'junk' meant to be little more than curios.
 
I think a heavy duty test is appropriate for Mideval sword replicas that are intended to be functional swords. Bear(SP) in mind that Mideval warriors wore steel armour, and engaged in fighting where swords crashed against swords.
Click to expand...

You are generalizing way too much. By the time fully evolved armor arrived on the scene in Europe, the sword had long faded as the primary weapon against armor. The arrow, lance, spear, mace, polearm and hammer were far more effective. If swords were used, they were either used against weak points in the armor, or were specialized swords designed to penetrate plate and chainmail.

Nor were swords used sword on sword a la Hollywood, with people chopping away at each other's sword. The parry was accomplished through technique, and not brute force.

Most swords should not chop wood. If you have one that does then you truely do have a poor reproduction.

n2s
 
Not2Sharp,

Thanks for the explaination of Mideval combat. Still, for whatever reasons, I can't find positive comments about the Indian and (non Kris Cutlery) Phillipine swords that are imported into the US. Yesterday I did a search on Bladeforums for Museum Replicas, which sells Indian Windlass swords. I did not find any recommendations to buy that brand.

I won't profess to know about Mideval combat or how swords should be tested, but what I do know is that I cannot find recommendations to buy swords made in India or the Phillipines, except for Kris Cutlery. I see a general trend in the threads concerning those swords, and I don't think so many people are going to be wrong in their estimation.
 
The Museum Replicas stuff is usually a distinctive step up in quality over the "stainless steel swords" that are selling for $29.99. They are mass produced and are usually at least somewhat functional (if not completely) and are made of carbon steel, hence will not tend to snap in-two as swords made of stainless have a tendency to do. On the other hand, I doubt though that they would compare in quality to a sword made here in the states (or other places)by quality-oriented smiths. Remember the old adage : You get what you pay for! (at least hopefully you will)
 
Hello scotjute,

I am not too clear on what "somewhat functional(if not completely)" means, but it doesn't make me want to jump in my car and head for the Museum Replicas store, which is about 45 miles from where I live.

When I read about well-made Western swords, the names that come up are Angus Trim, Del Tin, and Darkwood Armory. Also the European styles from Kris Cutlery are mentioned. I don't see Windlass, Deepeeka, or Ritter Steel included in that group.

I do see some high marks given to the recent offerings of Paul Chen.
There are some European style "Practical" models listed on eBay. I would be interested to read some comments about those swords.
 
Bugei is supplied by Paul Chen (Hanwei), and sometimes does some exclusive deal between them (example; tachi, crane katana, etc.).

Practical katana is a good one for cutting. I used it for cutting wara, sugar cane (I love sugar cane), even green bamboo. I do cutting every week since last year, and so far the blade is not chipped.

I don't like the balance though, I think the blade is too long for the handle. The Practical Plus Katana (the higher end practical katana) has better balance and easier to swing. I had an opportunity to handle the plus katana ta Atlanta blade show, but never cut with it.

So to compensate the 'weakness' of the practical katana, I also use a Tiger katana (you know, just an excuse to buy more edged stuff).

That's my $0.02 on 'practical' line of Hanwei. It's not medieval, but I guess they both range about the same.

How about the bolo maker of the Phillipine (recently featured in the Blade magazine)? Their stuffs don't look great, but they certainly do the job.

"The chief problem with the Asian swords is poor heat treatment. Most are made from recyled auto springs and similar steels which should make good blades, but because the recyling is not done properly the steel is no good."

I agree that the recycling is not done properly, but the heat treatment is good enough by my standard. Example : Hanwei, bolo maker, japanese sword (I gotta admit that japanese sword's heat treatment is one of the best in the world), HI khukri, etc.

Why have we never found any decent swords from certain country ?
There are a couple of reasons I could think off my head:

1. They only sell the sword locally, don't have any connection to USA.

2. This is what I fear most; the art of bladesmithing is diminishing.

Again, just $0.02 from the inexperienced one.
 
Originally posted by beluga

2. This is what I fear most; the art of bladesmithing is diminishing.
Click to expand...

This is probably true. When I was last in the Philippines (1999) I was told by people selling kris (what is the plural for kris?) that fewer people know how to make them with the proper waves.
 
Purveyors of sword-like objects, not swords. I like their axes ans pear heads, but swordsmithing is a skill with which these compaines are hit-or-miss. only a few patters haveI seen from MRL that seemed to me to be possibly functional. They usually aren't very concerned with functional specs of historic repros, unlike Lutel, Arms&Armor, and Templ.

Keith
 
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