Hand Rubbed Finish

P

PayneTrain

Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
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Whatever that means. Hi everyone, I'm new here. I've made 3 knives so far, all out of S35VN heat treated by Peter's. Two chef's and a small edc type. I've been struggling with how to finish them, and was hoping you guys could lend some tips so I could figure out what I'm doing wrong. I'm working right now on Chef 2.0, and I want it to look nice as it's a gift for my sister. She'll appreciate the imperfect look that I have on it now because it just screams hand made, but I'd like to see it a little more refined.

I'm not going for a real mirror here, but more of a very fine satin. Basically, I'd like to end above 600 grit, maybe at 1000. Here's what I've done:

After HT, finish off on a new 220 belt with light to medium pressure to get a uniform finish and smooth things out.
Move to hand wet sanding with a wood block, starting with 320, then 400, then 600, then I quit.
I use various techniques, heavy pressure and slow controlled movements, light pressure and rapid back and forth, and everything in between. I try a lot of water, I try it nearly dry. I change paper every 10 minutes or so, though at that fine a grit I can't really tell when it's used up till it's dry.

The problem is, I can't erase every scratch from the stage before. As it sits now it has some very subdued belt scratches with maybe a touch of 320 (I start the 320 the same direction as the belt), and a very few 400 scratches going across (handle to tip) that just will not come out no matter how much or how hard I do the 600. There's no point going beyond that I feel, because it'll just add more chaos.

My questions are:
How long does each grit generally take?
Soaking wet or almost dry?
Hard, soft, fast, or slow? ;)
Do any of these factors change as you go up in grits?
 
Here are two great videos that show great techniques on how to get an "even" finish regardless if it's a higher grit or a lower grit, Great fundamentals in both vids.. watch "101" first then watch the other. Also check out Nick Wheeler's channel for a lot more great tips and techniques :)

[video=youtube;4I4x4QLpfnk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4x4QLpfnk[/video]


then watch this one....

[video=youtube;NJ4Mitbpyzc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ4Mitbpyzc[/video]

Hope that helps

~Paul
My YT Channel Lsubslimed
 
Hand-sanding high-alloy steels like S35VN after they're HT'ed is sheer madness. It can certainly be done, but it's going to take a lonnnng time. That quiet evil noise you hear in the background is the chrome and vanadium carbides laughing at you...

Since Peter's is doing your HT, you can confidently grind your blades to final dimension and bring them to whatever finish you want before sending them in. I've never had a stainless blade come back from Peter's warped or bent. After HT they just have a light layer of oxide coloring on them, and that sands off fairly easily.
 
All of my knives are hand finished and I can say this with certainty. The only way to know for sure that all of the previous grit scratches have been removed is to sand in an opposing direction to the previous grit. If you come off the belt at 320 with a vertical scratch pattern, you have to start hand sanding in an opposing direction to that vertical pattern to remove it. When you think you're there, thourougly inspect to ensure that you've removed all previous grit scratches before moving up in grit. It's really that simple. Other than that, my biggest tips would be proper lighting and good paper. I use Rhynowet Redline. Oh yea, often you may have to start out hand sanding at a much lower grit than you'd like. In other words if you come off the grinder at 320, you may have to start as low as 120 hand sanding. It really depends on how good you are at the grinder. I took some suggestions I received and also recently added a disc sander to my shop. The disc sander can help to "level" the surface out better after coming off the grinder to make the hand sanding go a little quicker and easier.
 
james terrio said:
Hand-sanding high-alloy steels like S35VN after they're HT'ed is sheer madness. It can certainly be done, but it's going to take a lonnnng time. That quiet evil noise you hear in the background is the chrome and vanadium carbides laughing at you...

Since Peter's is doing your HT, you can confidently grind your blades to final dimension and bring them to whatever finish you want before sending them in. I've never had a stainless blade come back from Peter's warped or bent. After HT they just have a light layer of oxide coloring on them, and that sands off fairly easily.
Click to expand...

I'm going to quote for truth. I accidentally didn't hand finish a CPM20CV blade before I sent it to ht at Peters. It came back at 62, which is where I wanted it. However, I had promised a hand finish. So I started. And kept going. And going. And going. And going. It SUCKED!! I thought I'd never finish. Know what the key to any finish is?

Everyone say it with me:

Remove all the previous grit scratches before moving up in grits.

That's it. Everything else is technique on how to do that most efficiently. On a hard, abrasion resistant stainless steel it's going to be plain hell. It's going to take a long, long time. It's going to use a lot of paper. Know that going in.

Watch Nick's videos. Read "Stuck in the Metal with You" several times. Then get back to sanding. We'll talk more next week when you're finished. Lol
 
Brian.Evans said:
Know what the key to any finish is?

Everyone say it with me:

Remove all the previous grit scratches before moving up in grits.

Watch Nick's videos. Read "Stuck in the Metal with You" several times. Then get back to sanding. We'll talk more next week when you're finished. Lol
Click to expand...

Right on. There are really no shortcuts. :thumbup:

The first steps are the most important. If you really want a sweet finish, don't start hand-sanding at all until you're really happy with your grinds*, and don't even think about going to 400 until you have a very, very clean and even 220 grit finish. Once you get to a clean even 400-grit finish, subsequent steps go quicker and quicker. I'm convinced this approach actually saves time overall. :) The only other "answer is to just learn to embrace machine finishes, whether they're fine belts, Scotchbrite belts, tumbling/media blasting or whatever.


* I do just a few strokes lengthwise with 400 just to make any slight dips or divots stand out during the grinding process. That only takes a few seconds... if you have a wavy spot or a "dreaded 2-inch mark", it will jump right out at you.
 
james terrio said:
Hand-sanding high-alloy steels like S35VN after they're HT'ed is sheer madness. It can certainly be done, but it's going to take a lonnnng time. That quiet evil noise you hear in the background is the chrome and vanadium carbides laughing at you...

Since Peter's is doing your HT, you can confidently grind your blades to final dimension and bring them to whatever finish you want before sending them in. I've never had a stainless blade come back from Peter's warped or bent. After HT they just have a light layer of oxide coloring on them, and that sands off fairly easily.
Click to expand...

What about 3v?? Was wanting to try some of this next time. But I suck at the grinder as far as finish work, probably till i get better at it I will have to stick with hand finishing.
 
The same definitely goes for 3V (my overall favorite steel). Get as much done before HT as possible.
 
Thank you all, great info!

I had watched that first Nick Wheeler video a while ago, and it spurred me to put a 400 grit finish on before HT. It was pretty easy, especially compared to what I'm trying to do now, and it came out looking great. It came back from Peter's with a frosty like coating, not a scratch in sight. I guess I shouldn't have taken it back to the belt after...
5eb807bf-7ef5-46ad-93d9-c960b0845c54.jpg


So next time I will put the finish on before hand. I have a one, maybe two knives left worth of this steel so I'll see how it goes. I'm going to leave this one where it is, because it is kind of a cool look. A mixture of polish and grind lines. Maybe I'm on to something here?
I'll definitely watch more of Nick's videos too when I get the time.

Edit: Ok, maybe a couple scratches near the tip...still working on that.
 
PayneTrain said:
Whatever that means. Hi everyone, I'm new here. I've made 3 knives so far, all out of S35VN heat treated by Peter's. Two chef's and a small edc type. I've been struggling with how to finish them, and was hoping you guys could lend some tips so I could figure out what I'm doing wrong. I'm working right now on Chef 2.0, and I want it to look nice as it's a gift for my sister. She'll appreciate the imperfect look that I have on it now because it just screams hand made, but I'd like to see it a little more refined.

I'm not going for a real mirror here, but more of a very fine satin. Basically, I'd like to end above 600 grit, maybe at 1000. Here's what I've done:

After HT, finish off on a new 220 belt with light to medium pressure to get a uniform finish and smooth things out.
Move to hand wet sanding with a wood block, starting with 320, then 400, then 600, then I quit.
I use various techniques, heavy pressure and slow controlled movements, light pressure and rapid back and forth, and everything in between. I try a lot of water, I try it nearly dry. I change paper every 10 minutes or so, though at that fine a grit I can't really tell when it's used up till it's dry.

The problem is, I can't erase every scratch from the stage before. As it sits now it has some very subdued belt scratches with maybe a touch of 320 (I start the 320 the same direction as the belt), and a very few 400 scratches going across (handle to tip) that just will not come out no matter how much or how hard I do the 600. There's no point going beyond that I feel, because it'll just add more chaos.

My questions are:
How long does each grit generally take?
Soaking wet or almost dry?
Hard, soft, fast, or slow? ;)
Do any of these factors change as you go up in grits?
Click to expand...


I've been playing around with hand-rubbed finishes on S35VN after heat treat for a while, and I think I may have solved it - best flat-grind hand-finish I've had on a 9" chef knife. Here's what I figured out. (You may have also at this point because this is an old thread, but figured I'd share.)

Tools & Materials
* Cool Tool II cutting fluid
* 120-grit KT and 220-grit GT paper from Rhynowet (aluminum oxide)
* 320-, 400-, and 600-grit PS33 paper from Klingspoor (aluminum oxide)
* Micarta block with glued leather or a 1.5" or so aluminum paddle

Methods
* Take your blade to 400-grit on the platen to get a reliable vertical scratch pattern and erase most of the verticals from previous grits. (If you're having trouble with the two-inch divot, don't worry - the following steps should remove it. Also, the DVD 'Basic Hunters with J. Neilson' shows a much faster way to remove it in the second video on the disc.')
* Clamp your blade to your bench by the handle with a pipe-clamp or similar.
* Cut the paper length-wise into four strips about 2" wide.
* Dribble Cool Tool II cutting fluid on the blade.
* Start all the way back at 120-grit and sand in the direction of 10 o'clock, noon, and 2 o'clock. (The diagonals knock down the vertical scratches, and the verticals knock down the diagonal scratches.) Shift the paper along the block or paddle to get virgin abrasive onto the blade. Figure 5 or 10 minutes for each new section of paper; add more cutting fluid when you see dry streaks on the blade (you'll see the actual steel, not a muddy gray/black mess of oily fluid).
* Be patient at 120-grit and use as many strips as you need to. It might take a while, but this is where you're really cleaning up the waves in the blade. The following grits go much better if you're patient here.
* Likewise for 220- and 320-grit - use approximately one sheet (four strips) at each grit.
* At 400-grit, begin sanding back-and-forth, horizontal only. If you missed something, you'll definitely see it here.
* At 600-grit, sand horizontal, from plunge to tip only.

Notes
* After 120-grit, don't worry about thinning the blade to much. You're not gonna move much metal after 220. If you are, you were too thin at the start.
* After 120-grit, go a bit easier when you're close to the tip. You don't want to thin it too much. Easy enough to reshape the tip, but why do it if you don't have to?
* Wipe with a clean paper towel or wash with Dawn between each grit.
 
I use ALOT of CPMS35VN, I do 95% of all finish work on mine BEFORE heat treat. I will go to 800 with WD40 then heat treat and the clean up and finish is minimal when you get it back. It’s a steel I really love and I think deserves more credit! It does finish our really nice.
 
What are the differences between using something like WD-40 vs Windex as the sanding lubricant? I generally use Windex with my 52100/W2, mainly because it is not as messy as the oil lubricants.
 
I don't know exactly how it makes a difference, but last week I used WD40 for the first time with the last gritsize I used.
It does make it look better then the windex I normaly use or dry
 
You need too start with a courser grit. 10 minutes on a sheet? I cut my sheets into 2inch strips and they don't last long.

Make sure your sanding block is fairly hard. Too soft and the paper won't cut as well. Also narrower van help as you get more pressure.

Once you get everything nice at a low grit the others go much faster. Make sure to do opposing angles.

I like an 800 grit finish. I always go past what I want and maybe even buff before doing pulls on my final grit. I'll grind to 400 but start hand sanding at 180 cubitron.
 
Dragons Breath Knives said:
I use ALOT of CPMS35VN, I do 95% of all finish work on mine BEFORE heat treat. I will go to 800 with WD40 then heat treat and the clean up and finish is minimal when you get it back. It’s a steel I really love and I think deserves more credit! It does finish our really nice.
Click to expand...

I'll guess you're better with the initial flat grind than I am. I'm way more comfortable than when I started, but I still get some wavy-gravy near the tips of long knives. I've also had more than a few blades come back from heat treat with bends that take a lot of grinding to remove, so I send them heavier than I did at first, probably 60-70% finished before heat treat. Also, these are chef's knives and very thin to begin with - .090 <-> .100 at the spine and usually 8"-10" long.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
dekerjm,
Still good info, but this is a four year old thread.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Stacy, and likewise for the patience. I know it's an old thread, but I'm still very much the beginner and I've found a lot of help in older threads and with older advice these first few years. Figured if I learned something useful, why not post it?
 
jdm61 said:
EDM stones are your friend.............
Click to expand...

Meh, tried em' and didn't care for them.

My suggestion is the same today, as it was 4 years ago. Come off the belt and/or disc as clean as you can. Use good paper. Start hand sanding with the highest grit possible but don't be afraid to drop down in grit if necessary. The following grit must be in a bias direction to the prior. Also, I use to use a lubricant but don't find it necessary any more.

Here's a Hunter I'm working on. It's at a clean 400 grit.

5Z7sZLL.jpg
 
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