Heat treat oven questions

jll346

Knife maker
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
4,309
I have a small Knife Dog Oven (Paragon). Brand new first time using it. Doing 80crv2. Let oven reach 1525 and let it sit at that temperature for a good 30 minutes. I then put one knife in as fast as possible. I'm losing 60-75°. I wait until back to 1525 (7-9min) then set 10 minute timer. Remove at 10 minute mark and quench in Parks AAA. Does this sound correct? Normal temperature drop and time to come back up? Thanks... Jim

I tried doing 4 knives at once and temperature fluctuation opening and closing door was extreme. So I abandoned that idea...
 
Last edited:
I have a small Knife Dog Oven (Paragon). Brand new first time using it. Doing 80crv2. Let oven reach 1525 and let it sit at that temperature for a good 30 minutes. I then put one knife in as fast as possible. I'm losing 60-75°. I wait until back to 1525 (7-9min) then set 10 minute timer. Remove at 10 minute mark and quench in Parks AAA. Does this sound correct? Normal temperature drop and time to come back up? Thanks... Jim

I tried doing 4 knives at once and temperature fluctuation opening and closing door was extreme. So I abandoned that idea...

That sounds about right.
 
A lot of it depends on the size of the knife.
 
Think I'm sticking to Peter's 😒

If you put a 10 inch long knife that’s a 1/4 inch thick it’s gonna take that oven more time to rebound than putting a 6 inch knife that’s 3/32 thick.

Don’t worry about the rebound time and the temp drop. Just open the door put the blade in as fast as you can while being safe and close the door.

Temp drop and rebound time will depend on how long you keep that door open and how the kiln is.
 
The following is a general metallurgical comment using the OP's 1525°F as the oven target temp, and 80CrV or other carbon steel. Numbers are for example and not the exact recommendations for this or other steels.

JLL346:

Don't worry about the drop in temps when taking multiple knives out and quenching.
Two reasons for this.
One (the biggest) is that while the TC may show a drop of 75°, the blades did not cool by any significant amount.
Second (and equally important), it is the actual quench that starts the clock if the blades were austenitized for long enough at the right temperature. For most carbon steels you have 10 seconds or more to get a blade from the oven and under the oil.


Just remove each knife and shut the door, then quench the blade. The oven may not have rebounded to 1525°F, but the blades are still plenty hot enough.

Here's the metallurgy:
What we call the "quench" is the start of the continuous cooling curve (CCC). It is a continuous drop form austenite (A1) ... to the formation of martensite (Ms) ... to the final martensite state (Mf). As long as the cooling is continuous it will be fine. The rate may (and should) change at various stages of the curve.
The point that requires a fast-cooling rate for carbon steels is only as it passes the pearlite nose between1200°F and 900°F. At that point you need the steel cooling at a rate of 1000°F/sec. A drop in the oven temperature from 1525° to 1425° during multiple quenches would just be part of this curve with no real effect on the final outcome.
The blades would have to drop below 1350°F to start any phase transformation. Even if cooled from 1525°F to 1250°F at a rate as slow as 10°F/second (that is 37.5 seconds!), it will still miss the pearlite nose as long as the drop from 1250°F is 1000°F/sec from there to below 900°F.

Again, I want to impress that the above is empirical.
In the OP's situation
- while the TC may show a drop of 75°, the blades did not cool by that much.

Note:
While Parks #50 would be the best quenchant for a thicker blade in 80CrV, and Parks AAA would be best for thinner blades. Both will work fine with only slight differences in hardness and toughness, For LOTS more info, read Larin's article on working with 80CrV.
 
Everything I am trying now is 5/32 80crv2. 8-9" total length......
 
Everything I am trying now is 5/32 80crv2. 8-9" total length......
I think I saw that you posted your oven for sale. I wouldn’t give up so quick I don’t think you have any issues. The time and money saved by doing it yourself is worth it. You have the potential to achieve a heat treat better than a commercial heat treater can provide.
 
Most knife makers worry too much about soak time. Temperature is more important. It won’t hurt to soak at temperature for bit longer.

Hoss
 
Stacy mentioned Parks 50 being a better choice than AAA which is what I have. Is that my downfall with this 80crv2?
 
Stacy mentioned Parks 50 being a better choice than AAA which is what I have. Is that my downfall with this 80crv2?
Depends on what your target hardness is and if you’ve done any pregrinding. If you get that edge thinner the quench could be fast enough.

I have a Rockwell tester and I’m in northern NJ if you want to make the trip.
 
I have used AAA for 80 CRV2 and hit 66+ out of the quench, 62 after tempering 2 hours at 350 in my kitchen oven. 80crv2 can have a lot of decarb, too. My kiln can take a LOOOONG time to rebound (120V and it's a top opening kiln with elements in the lid) and it often drops 100-200 degrees when I pull out a blade for quenching. I have done 4 or 5 blades at a time in the kiln when I do a batch. So I do my 10-15 min soak time at temp, then take a blade out, quench it, wait another 5 min or so to make sure the next blade is back up to temp and quench the next one. It also allows my oil to cool down a bit, too. So the last blade may be in there a while longer, but they are all fairly consistent HRC. I do use ATP41 now when doing carbon steels or spray graphite lube to try to prevent some decarb. I did 52100 and 80CRV2 into AAA at around 90-115 degrees (it was only like 35-40 degrees outside, so I had to put a few hot steel bars into the oil to heat it up from 35 degrees!!) The bars came out of the kiln, too, so I had to let the kiln rebound then, too. Once at temp, quenching the blades helped keep it warm and I often had to wait a bit for it to cool down again.

If doing stock removal, some guys had better results going through a full Normalizing, thermocycle, DET anneal, etc because the steel they had was very spheroidized and not in the best condition for hardening. Others reported steel from NJSB didn't need extra processing for stock removal, but I still often go through the whole process just so I know the steel will be the same all around. Sometimes if I have a one of blade that I forged, I may do that alone in the forge, but I try to normalize it, let cool, then do some thermocycles before quenching. I used Parks 50 this time (was doing a 1084/15N20 blade at the same time) and after tempering around 400, both were at 60-61 rockwell.
 
Still could not get filed to skate. I bumped the soak time up to 20 minutes and file skates now? How hard is another question....
 
Last edited:
Still could not get filed to skate. I bumped the soak time up to 20 minutes and file skates now? How hard is another question....
If you’re not coating the blade with something to protect from decarb you’ll have quite a bit to grind off and even if you do it can still go pretty deep. I did a 52100 cleaver that I thought wasn’t hard but I just had a crap ton of decarb on it.
 
I went from .135" thick 1/8" 80CRV2 to around .090-.095 by the time I ground the decarb off. Its not as bad if you just go to 1525 and quench (spray graphite lube works well), but if you do the 1650 normalize, 1400 DET, etc, there can be a lot of decarb. I started using the cheaper SS HT foil as a pouch for the Normalize/Thermocycle/DET Anneal cycles and ATP641 for the actual quench.

I am in CT if you want to come by at some point and use my HRC tester? I wonder if your oven TC is off? Try setting the oven at 1475 and see if table salt melts at that temp?
 
If you’re not coating the blade with something to protect from decarb you’ll have quite a bit to grind off and even if you do it can still go pretty deep. I did a 52100 cleaver that I thought wasn’t hard but I just had a crap ton of decarb on it.
That's good to know. APPRECIATE EVERYONE'S HELP!👏👏
 
I went from .135" thick 1/8" 80CRV2 to around .090-.095 by the time I ground the decarb off. Its not as bad if you just go to 1525 and quench (spray graphite lube works well), but if you do the 1650 normalize, 1400 DET, etc, there can be a lot of decarb. I started using the cheaper SS HT foil as a pouch for the Normalize/Thermocycle/DET Anneal cycles and ATP641 for the actual quench.

I am in CT if you want to come by at some point and use my HRC tester? I wonder if your oven TC is off? Try setting the oven at 1475 and see if table salt melts at that temp?
Ty. Salt test Is a great idea.
 
Just pulled this one from oven. All black sections were black bubbles when I pulled it from the oven???? First time I have seen the bubble thing??
 

Attachments

  • 20240427_163417.jpg
    20240427_163417.jpg
    154.5 KB · Views: 1
Back
Top