The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is $300 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Fantastic Charlie, the Bee's Knees!Double Rattail Bolster from Joseph Rodgers!!View attachment 1583978
I'm looking for that triple one,Jack Black !!
The other was a Joseph Elliott, but with the Lockwood Brothers CC stamp on the blade, appropriately enough 
Lovely Ward's knife, Eric!!! While we are off the rails;
Two gorgeous knives Glenn
Smashing CharlieLovely Ward's knife, Eric!!! While we are off the rails;
Here's another two-rattail version by Winchester, a regular length Coke Bottle Jack!!View attachment 1584019View attachment 1584020
That's both attractive and interesting EdFacinating to see the impression tool Jack, the second I saw it I recognised it as I have something similar, compliments of Mr Herder. Its an interesting piece to me as it has the rats tail bolsters and seems to be hodgepodge of parts.
That Rodgers you worked on is a very beautiful item Glennbad.
If I remember correctly, Charlie's has a single Spear-point blade and wood covers. Joseph Elliott also used that frame with a Lambsfoot blade (and the Lockwood Brothers tang stamp) - at least as 1987 - hope I find one some day! 
Ah ha! That must be what blade (or at least format) the original handle was destined for.Two gorgeous knives Glenn
Smashing Charlie
That's both attractive and interesting Ed
I've only ever seen it with single blades before. The system in Sheffield certainly takes some understanding!
I was trying to explain it to another friend recently, though this was in relation to the consistency of Sheffield tang stamps, in terms of dating knives:
Have read that post a couple times now, what an amazing insight into the industry and time that is Jack.I've only ever seen it with single blades before. The system in Sheffield certainly takes some understanding!
Unless you've witnessed the vagaries of the Little Mester system in Sheffield. (and of course I've only witnessed the 'fag-end' of it), I think it's extremely hard to imagine how it worked, with thousands of independent cutlers, and tiny firms, working out of homes and workshops all over the city, with blackened windows, and no street sign. Even in my day, it was sometimes only possible to track these small makers down by word of mouth, and using your nose to sniff out the smell of industry. The larger firms rotated their outworkers regularly to keep costs down, so the cutlers were competing with each other for the lowest price (in the dying days of the industry, there was a lot of bickering among the Little Mesters, and them under-cutting each other, to try and get work). As larger firms contracted work to Little Mesters, if the job was too big, or they were busy, they might in turn sub-contact part of the job, or even all of it, to others.
Tang stamps wear faster than many people would imagine, and while the most prestigious firms would have replaced them regularly, even they might have struggled to supply up to date stamps to everyone involved in the labyrinthine chain of production. Depending on their position in that chain, the cutlers may have received ready-stamped blades, or been issued with a stamp, with these often being held onto for future use (most Little Mesters I've known had a good collection of stamps - one still has my 'Jack Black Knives' stamp!). From what I know of Sheffield cutlers, the smaller firms and Little Mesters, would have used their stamps well past the point where they cut crisply, and certainly wouldn't have changed them because there was a new monarch on the throne, for example (we see this even with Rodgers knives).
How was the work given out? In some cases, the Little Mesters came to the big firms to ask for work, taking away a parcel of parts under the 'liver and draw' system (getting paid when the finished knives were delivered). In other cases, an apprentice or clerk might be sent out with a note from the gaffer, and maybe even a catalogue clipping (if the firm had a catalogue) or sample. In later times, there might be a telephone conversation, though not many Little Mesters had telephones in their workshops, even in recent times, and some not at home. Let us imagine though, that Mr Arkwright rings Mr Smith, and asks him if he can make him up 4 gross of Lambsfoot knives, 4 gross of Peach Pruners, and 4 gross of Sleeveboard Penknives, all 'Town Patterns', patterns Mr Smith, the cutler, is very familiar with, and knows how Mr Arkwright's company interprets them. There will be some haggling over price, which Mr Arkwright will probably cut subsequently. Among his collection of blanking out tools, Mr Smith has all the tools he needs for the job (see photo below of tools from A.Wright/J.Howarth, who did a lot of contract work for other firms, many are over a hundred years old), and he also has a stamp relating to Mr Arkwright's firm. However, that stamp may be 10 years old, maybe more, and a little different to the stamp Mr Roberts, the cutler 3 doors down, who also does work for Mr Arkwright's firm, is using.
[I have papers showing how Joseph Rodgers sub-contracted work to Jack Howarth, supplying catalogue papers with the required patterns marked, and amended with comments regarding covers, etc, as well as a formal list of the number of knives required.]
View attachment 1584391
Often there would be leftover blades, sometimes a lot of them, if an order was cancelled, a firm went bust (which often happened overnight), or a cutler passed away. These would rarely be thrown away, though it sometimes happened (when Rodgers' cutlers moved to the Richards factory after the Imperial takeover, they threw all their parts in the River Sheaf), and would be made into knives at some point, either with the original stamp, or without it. For example, I bought a bunch of Saynor knives about 10 years ago, which had old Saynor blades, but had been made up relatively recently, and I remember a cutler I knew finding a box of Truelove Bowie blades in his workshop - in the early 1990's! Stan Shaw had a whole collection of old forged blades, which he re-used.
It's worth noting that sometimes firms loaned the blanking out and machine-grinding tools to Little Mesters they had sub-contracted to, but they weren't always returned. In the late 1980's and early 1990's, the main work undertaken by a small Sheffield (father and son) firm was producing Sgian Dubh blades (stamped 'hand-made', but actually machine-ground), which went to Scotland to be hafted and finished there. The tools they used had been loaned to them when they did a job for Eggington, but they flatly refused to return them. Ron Brookes, the old gaffer at Eggington spent more than a decade trying to get them back, without success -I saw him a few years back, and he's still fuming about it!
I've only ever seen it with single blades before. The system in Sheffield certainly takes some understanding!
Unless you've witnessed the vagaries of the Little Mester system in Sheffield. (and of course I've only witnessed the 'fag-end' of it), I think it's extremely hard to imagine how it worked, with thousands of independent cutlers, and tiny firms, working out of homes and workshops all over the city, with blackened windows, and no street sign. Even in my day, it was sometimes only possible to track these small makers down by word of mouth, and using your nose to sniff out the smell of industry. The larger firms rotated their outworkers regularly to keep costs down, so the cutlers were competing with each other for the lowest price (in the dying days of the industry, there was a lot of bickering among the Little Mesters, and them under-cutting each other, to try and get work). As larger firms contracted work to Little Mesters, if the job was too big, or they were busy, they might in turn sub-contact part of the job, or even all of it, to others.
Tang stamps wear faster than many people would imagine, and while the most prestigious firms would have replaced them regularly, even they might have struggled to supply up to date stamps to everyone involved in the labyrinthine chain of production. Depending on their position in that chain, the cutlers may have received ready-stamped blades, or been issued with a stamp, with these often being held onto for future use (most Little Mesters I've known had a good collection of stamps - one still has my 'Jack Black Knives' stamp!). From what I know of Sheffield cutlers, the smaller firms and Little Mesters, would have used their stamps well past the point where they cut crisply, and certainly wouldn't have changed them because there was a new monarch on the throne, for example (we see this even with Rodgers knives).
How was the work given out? In some cases, the Little Mesters came to the big firms to ask for work, taking away a parcel of parts under the 'liver and draw' system (getting paid when the finished knives were delivered). In other cases, an apprentice or clerk might be sent out with a note from the gaffer, and maybe even a catalogue clipping (if the firm had a catalogue) or sample. In later times, there might be a telephone conversation, though not many Little Mesters had telephones in their workshops, even in recent times, and some not at home. Let us imagine though, that Mr Arkwright rings Mr Smith, and asks him if he can make him up 4 gross of Lambsfoot knives, 4 gross of Peach Pruners, and 4 gross of Sleeveboard Penknives, all 'Town Patterns', patterns Mr Smith, the cutler, is very familiar with, and knows how Mr Arkwright's company interprets them. There will be some haggling over price, which Mr Arkwright will probably cut subsequently. Among his collection of blanking out tools, Mr Smith has all the tools he needs for the job (see photo below of tools from A.Wright/J.Howarth, who did a lot of contract work for other firms, many are over a hundred years old), and he also has a stamp relating to Mr Arkwright's firm. However, that stamp may be 10 years old, maybe more, and a little different to the stamp Mr Roberts, the cutler 3 doors down, who also does work for Mr Arkwright's firm, is using.
[I have papers showing how Joseph Rodgers sub-contracted work to Jack Howarth, supplying catalogue papers with the required patterns marked, and amended with comments regarding covers, etc, as well as a formal list of the number of knives required.]
View attachment 1584391
Often there would be leftover blades, sometimes a lot of them, if an order was cancelled, a firm went bust (which often happened overnight), or a cutler passed away. These would rarely be thrown away, though it sometimes happened (when Rodgers' cutlers moved to the Richards factory after the Imperial takeover, they threw all their parts in the River Sheaf), and would be made into knives at some point, either with the original stamp, or without it. For example, I bought a bunch of Saynor knives about 10 years ago, which had old Saynor blades, but had been made up relatively recently, and I remember a cutler I knew finding a box of Truelove Bowie blades in his workshop - in the early 1990's! Stan Shaw had a whole collection of old forged blades, which he re-used.
It's worth noting that sometimes firms loaned the blanking out and machine-grinding tools to Little Mesters they had sub-contracted to, but they weren't always returned. In the late 1980's and early 1990's, the main work undertaken by a small Sheffield (father and son) firm was producing Sgian Dubh blades (stamped 'hand-made', but actually machine-ground), which went to Scotland to be hafted and finished there. The tools they used had been loaned to them when they did a job for Eggington, but they flatly refused to return them. Ron Brookes, the old gaffer at Eggington spent more than a decade trying to get them back, without success -I saw him a few years back, and he's still fuming about it!
Have read that post a couple times now, what an amazing insight into the industry and time that is Jack.
Helps me understand and appreciate the nuances of why knives like these came to be, fair play to you for taking the time to write that!
Intresting that Rodgers out worked to Howarths, perhaps naively I assumed they would treasure their rep for ultra high quality and want to keep all processes in house. Would this have been in the later years? Although I do now remember Herder mention there were examples of high and low quality from all ages from Rodgers, again like you say perhaps more examples of parts bin put togethers.
Here is the example I mentioned previously.
There are slight gaps here and there in the scales fit, the backsprings are not ground flush and we have the interloper Bona Fide Wigfall blade.
Despite these supposed "issues" I admired the fact it was what is was and after reading your above post even more so now! Thank you sir
Thank youHave read that post a couple times now, what an amazing insight into the industry and time that is Jack.
Helps me understand and appreciate the nuances of why knives like these came to be, fair play to you for taking the time to write that!
Intresting that Rodgers out worked to Howarths, perhaps naively I assumed they would treasure their rep for ultra high quality and want to keep all processes in house. Would this have been in the later years? Although I do now remember Herder mention there were examples of high and low quality from all ages from Rodgers, again like you say perhaps more examples of parts bin put togethers.
Here is the example I mentioned previously.
There are slight gaps here and there in the scales fit, the backsprings are not ground flush and we have the interloper Bona Fide Wigfall blade.
Despite these supposed "issues" I admired the fact it was what is was and after reading your above post even more so now! Thank you sir
I've written here many times about working practices in Sheffield, but posts get buried, and it really is a difficult system to explain, and for anyone not familiar with it to understand, not least because there is much that's crazy about it! Despite the irrationality of the system, it worked, but could have only really done so in a town with such a huge number of skilled craftsmen involved in all parts of the steel and cutlery trades. It's a system that gave us some fabulous knives, but caused a lot of workers to have to live hand to mouth, and to die early, and for the collector, it makes dating knives accurately very difficult. Thank you my friend, yes indeed, Sheffield's a funny place!
I don't think many folks realise just how early the decline began, but once it did, there were many factors which caused it to accelerate
As you know, Sheffield chose to compete with overseas competition on price rather than quality, which not only meant using lower-cost materials, and reducing QC, but paying lower wages, so fewer and fewer lads went into the cutlery trade, particularly as all sorts of new occupations were becoming available, and there was a general labour shortage after WWII. Those that did tended to be the least educated, and they were increasingly trained up by cutlers who didn't have the highest skills themselves, were forced to rush their work, and couldn't spare the time to properly train an apprentice. Many apprentices were just used as cheap labour, doing all the menial jobs, such as sweeping the floor and making tea, rather than learning a craft, and consequently many left, and went to earn higher wages in the steel works or coal mines, for example. By the time I left school in 1977, I only knew a few lads who went into the cutlery industry, and they were lads with poor academic records, and no formal qualifications, who often had family connections to a particular firm. As factories closed on a weekly basis, it wasn't long before they were looking for other jobs unfortunately. A former brother-in-law of mine was one of Joseph Rodgers last apprentices, but I doubt he ever made a knife from start to finish. From what he told me about his work, he and the other apprentices spent most of their time messing around, while doing jobs which had nothing to do with the cutlery trades, cleaning out old store cupboards, sweeping up, etc. He was a nice lad, but certainly not the brightest. I know another Rodgers cutler, who worked alongside him, but was from the previous generation. He wasn't a good cutler either though. Most old Sheffield cutlers still alive, will tell you that above all else, you had to be FAST (not necessarily good) to earn enough to live on, with the appallingly low 'piece-work' rates. Labour was always so cheap in Sheffield that it is one of the reasons few cutlery firms ever mechanised, and certainly the gaffers had other things to do with their money than invest in the companies their forebears had built up. As collectors, I think we tend to romanticize the men who made the knives we admire, but most were humble men, who liked a drink, badly paid, badly fed, and arguably badly used. Some of them did make some wonderful knives though 
