High-hardness choppers

Twindog said:
I tried it on the Vanadis 4E blade, reprofiling the edge from 20/20 to 15/15. There was a little more damage, but not much. This is good steel with a good heat treat.
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Nicely done :thumbup:

Most impressive to me is the comparison of the V4 blade from ZT against the 3V Field Knife from Carothers - they're close but the ZT shows less damage, you might even keep it at 15/15 from now on given that level of performance, whereas the field knife looks to need a microbevel to bolster the apex somewhat. May be a test worth repeating, informative results. Got any others you intend to test like this?
 
chiral.grolim said:
Nicely done :thumbup:

Most impressive to me is the comparison of the V4 blade from ZT against the 3V Field Knife from Carothers - they're close but the ZT shows less damage, you might even keep it at 15/15 from now on given that level of performance, whereas the field knife looks to need a microbevel to bolster the apex somewhat. May be a test worth repeating, informative results. Got any others you intend to test like this?
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I think I'll hold off for now on testing any more knives. My knife collection is beginning to look a little ratty.

Nathan builds a really nice knife. His 3V heat treat is excellent, but the knife itself is so nice to handle that it stands out from all my production knives.

Each knife has so many variables -- heat treat, steel, edge and blade geometry -- that it's difficult to predict the best geometry for a given blade at any given use. The bailing wire test is good for testing edge stability because it's fairly sensitive. Normally, I don't chop wires, and if I tested actual cutting, the 30-degree inclusive profile would come out ahead. And if I tested for wear resistance, the results would likely be different, too.
 
Twindog said:
You're right, Bodog. I bought all of those knives from knife makers on the forums, except for the ZT. Huge difference in performance. Funny that the production blade did the best, although the Gillson in M4 is an awesome blade. The 3V is good, too.

The 1095 blade didn't do well in this test of edge stability, but it had done really well in an earlier test I did on whole-blade toughness.

Knives have a variety of essential attributes: design, geometry, balance, edge stability, ergonomics, overall toughness, wear resistance. People see one test of one attribute and think they've found a great knife. But while a knife can do exceptionally well in one area, it can fail in another. Knives are complex.
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I've learned to be careful. The ZT 0180 performs very well for me. So much so that I had two different knives made with 4V at the same hardness. The performance isn't bad, but it's not at the same level as the ZT. Who's doing the heat treatment is a big deal and just because something is made by a small maker doesn't come close to meaning it'll perform at the same level of even mass production knives. Let alone matching the level of performance of a knife made by a guy who really understands the heat treatment of steel specifically for blades.
 
Good decision :thumbup: - using finished knives for gathering this data, would be too expensive. What gauge is the baling wire?

Oh, please post sharpening bevel dps for tested choppers. My W2 chopper is around 15/15 dps (measured when I took closeup pics, that edge is still *as returned*).

Thanks,

Twindog said:
I think I'll hold off for now on testing any more knives. My knife collection is beginning to look a little ratty.
...
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The bailing wire is 0.100 inches. I don't know what gauge that translates to.

I measure edge angles with a laser protractor, but it's too small to take wide blades, so I just went with the edge width at the shoulders for most of the choppers and tried to measure a corresponding shoulder-width on the convex blades. The heel of the machete blade is about 30 degrees inclusive -- that's as close as I could get.

It's plain to see that the edge acuity affects both cutting performance and edge stability, but in opposite directions. Because I was measuring both performance and edge stability, I didn't want to change the design geometry of the choppers. But your W2 test chopper and the 3V re-heat treat that you did were both very acute at the edge. Remarkably, they both did very, very well on edge stability, despite their chopping power, acute edges and the hardness of the bailing wire.



bluntcut said:
Good decision :thumbup: - using finished knives for gathering this data, would be too expensive. What gauge is the baling wire?

Oh, please post sharpening bevel dps for tested choppers. My W2 chopper is around 15/15 dps (measured when I took closeup pics, that edge is still *as returned*).

Thanks,
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http://www.thomasnet.com/articles/hardware/screw-nail-sizes

Somehow, in pic those baling wire looks much larger than 0.1" dia :confused:. Ok then, I'll test using 5D nail (0.109" dia) - I've 1 lbs box. Nail is probably harder than baling wire.

15/15 dps edges of high alloy steels will suffer ... I plan to chop 5d nail on 1/4" thick metal backing, unless you think I should use wood backing - for parity?

Twindog said:
The bailing wire is 0.100 inches. I don't know what gauge that translates to.

I measure edge angles with a laser protractor, but it's too small to take wide blades, so I just went with the edge width at the shoulders for most of the choppers and tried to measure a corresponding shoulder-width on the convex blades. The heel of the machete blade is about 30 degrees inclusive -- that's as close as I could get.

It's plain to see that the edge acuity affects both cutting performance and edge stability, but in opposite directions. Because I was measuring both performance and edge stability, I didn't want to change the design geometry of the choppers. But your W2 test chopper and the 3V re-heat treat that you did were both very acute at the edge. Remarkably, they both did very, very well on edge stability, despite their chopping power, acute edges and the hardness of the bailing wire.
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One of the problems I had with the wood backing is that the wire would be driven into the wood. I measured the wire diameter with a micrometer, so it should be accurate.

I suspect that nails and wire come in different hardness levels, so that will be a confounding variable. The 10d nails I used seemed exceptionally hard. But I've used 16d nails that were so soft that I had to be careful hammering them so they didn't bend. I gave up buying hardware at the big-box stores because of uneven quality.



bluntcut said:
http://www.thomasnet.com/articles/hardware/screw-nail-sizes

Somehow, in pic those baling wire looks much larger than 0.1" dia :confused:. Ok then, I'll test using 5D nail (0.109" dia) - I've 1 lbs box. Nail is probably harder than baling wire.

15/15 dps edges of high alloy steels will suffer ... I plan to chop 5d nail on 1/4" thick metal backing, unless you think I should use wood backing - for parity?
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Well, here is the 2 half-tang field knives chopped 5d nail against wood & steel backings.

53wX1Vp.jpg


edit: Edges of Elmax & 1095 at 15dps are much more chippy than high hrc 3V & aebl above when chopped against wood backing.
 
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Cool stuff, Luong. You take testing to the next level. So little damage to a 3V edge at that hardness and at that acuity is amazing. Until your work, I wouldn't have thought it possible.
 
You had chipping on a custom 3v chopper from...berry bushes? That's messed up.

Check this out...I dunno how/why it happened, perhaps this "Stainless Steel" from "China" that I got from BudK is that ol' diamond in the rough - the one $20 blade out of 100,000 of them made that actually holds up. Or perhaps I'm just way off and don't have a clue what I'm talking about:






That one chip you see in the edge is from a stone when I drove this thing into the ground in a chopping motion. As you can see it takes 2" thick branches in a single swipe. You can also probably see that a massive hole was drilled near the tip at the sweatshop, and the 'Choil' looks to be custom fit for non other than Shrek himself.

If I had a custom 3v chopper chip on me like that I'd be raaagin lol, but that's something I need to work on, because expectation often leads to disappointment.


Disclaimer for any newcomers: Don't go chopping angiosperm with stainless steel from china, you very well might end up like the blonde dude from Cutlery Corner.
 
that stainless is likely very soft with high carbon stainless like a 420hc or something with at least a 40 inclusive edge.
 
noob93 said:
that stainless is likely very soft with high carbon stainless like a 420hc or something with at least a 40 inclusive edge.
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True, and I guess that's what I'm confused about; why have I personally convinced myself to buy numerous $300+ choppers(anxiously awaiting that GSO 12) when this $20 one easily gets the job done? That's the question I'm asking myself, albeit out loud.

"I used to use 10xx hardware-store machetes to do most of my chopping, but those machetes were never stout enough for rainforest realities. Their big advantage was a cheap price, which was a critical attribute in my younger, poorer days. But their edge stability was poor. I was constantly repairing damage with a file."

I'd say after using this BudK 'Thing' 4 separate times for hours at a time and literally chopping down trees with it(and batoning firewood), that it finally needs a sharpening since it no longer cuts 2 inchers effortlessly in one swipe. 420hc or perhaps its even 440, but I feel like the pics show it's not suffering from the edge stability(I don't doubt the 40 degree edge estimate) issues found in the 1095s and similar steels used in the past by the OP, and as we all know there are no worries with rust in wet climates with the 420/440 hoopty variety. It doesn't fall under the 'High-hardness choppers' title, but in relation to the OP having the lousy heat treat verified on his custom 3v chopper(what did that cost, $600+?), my mind can't help but circle back to my question and what's been discussed numerous times here at the forums - is this all the result of marketing in the industry? Either way I'm glad we're finally seeing solid options from respectable companies like ZT, CPK and S!K with evolving heat treats since the supplies from excellent makers like Jacob were far below the demand.

If anyone reads this as trolling or bashing, please know that's not my intent or disposition. It's really just confusion and blabbering. I'm a lover of blades and I stopped buying 'Cheap' ones yeeears ago in favor of semi/custom ones. Just thought the overall performance of this $20 John was interesting since certain custom 3v choppers come to your door with worthless heat treats.
 
Well to be honest I believe marketing plays into it I also think human evolution be it machining,farming etc is ever changing. Humans all have one thing in common imho we always want better and will always want better because without this trait we would fail to evolve and create. For me I would never pay big money for a machete chopper or whatever you want to call it. If I can find a decent maker to make me one out of some good ol 1084,5160.l6 etc for a few hundred forget about it. To me a machete or chopper doesnt need beauty just brawn and efficiency. Ya that heat treat on that blade wasnt the greatest and i would sure hope it wasnt a 600 dollar knife...Id be furious lol.
 
Sorry if I missed it but how thick is the blade on your custom 3v chopper?
Thanks for the informative thread. You put in some good work.
 
Need and want are usually two different things
That said there isn't much knife chores (you know just cutting stuff) that can't be handled with a 17 dollar olfa utility knife .

Will I trade my knives for one? nope.
Do I use the utility when I don't want to mess up a nice knife ? Yup

Have I used knives past their points of gross abuse ? Yup
:)

Edit back to thread
 
I wonder how much technique comes into play.

Just like making a bad cut with a Japanese sword .

Can bad techniques, with bad geometry, equal undue lateral stress on the edge? Edit to cause chips
 
Teppojutsu said:
I wonder how much technique comes into play.
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FFFuuud yeah! I was waiting for someone to say it! :D 'Function Follows Form'.

Speaking of both function and form...nice thread, thanks for the insights, and I still feel for you and that failed metallurgy on that one chopper.
 
Phixt said:
FFFuuud yeah! I was waiting for someone to say it! :D 'Function Follows Form'.

Speaking of both function and form...nice thread, thanks for the insights, and I still feel for you and that failed metallurgy on that one chopper.
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HA ha well as someone that plays a lot with blades I can tell when a cut doesn't work BECAUSE OF ME ha ha.

The hardest cuts are perfectly horizontal (verydifficult)
 
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