Himalayan Imports Khukuri's are customs

Cobalt

Cobalt

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 23, 1998
Messages
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It really makes no difference to me if a knife is custom or made in a small shop by a small group like Busse, Randal, MD etc., thince these can and do beat many customs in quality if not price. However, I was thinking about this the other day and thought that a single Master Kami(Nepalese bladesmith) forges and crafts these knives from begining to end. The only thing that he does not make is the scabbard. So my coment is that the Himalayan Imports khukuri's are actually custom made knives. Am I correct in my way of thinking?
 
Beats me. I have not as of yet seen a defination of what a custom knife is in regards to this forum. I would consider my khukuris handmade but not custom, but the Bowie you designed, which I ordered one of, I would consider custom as I had input into the design.

In a recent thread about Randalls:

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000285.html

Les commented that you can get a knife custom made to your specifications and that does not make it a custom knife you have just customized it. That is not consistent language there.

Les, I have no interest in what the Guild says a custom knife is - they are not moderating this forum - you are. You are the one who has the say over what is and what isn't a custom knife. How can you expect people to stay on topic if you don't tell them what the topic is?

-Cliff
 
Ive owned a few Randalls, a M/D for a short time, and handled/looked over a Busse.

They are not even close to the same quality of the any of the customs ive owned.

I do agree however, the way that you describe the Himalayan Import Khukuri is built, it is a custom knife in my opinion.

 
Cliff,

First, my language is consistent. For instance you can order a Micro Tech medium UDT with a black blade and serrated or satin finish without serration's. This could be considered by some to be a custom knife, only in that you had a choice in what options you received. However, when you take a standard knife and add or change options, it is not a custom knife, but a customized knife.

Also, in an earlier thread someone commented how they had a custom knife because pearl was put on the handle of the knife (aftermarket). This technically is considered a customized knife. Not a custom knife.

Cliff, I use the Guild regulations as a guideline. As these regs have been in place for 26 years. However, I dont feel that someone needs to be a Guild member to make custom knives.

The term custom knives was coined back when you knew who every knifemaker was. This was used more a generic term more than an exact definition.

Much like handmade. This has become a non-literal term to describe knives produced by individuals. The only knives that may truly be considered handmade are the Obsidian or Flint knives. Even then you can argue that by using the flaking method (pressure from another piece of Obsidian or Flint) to produce the blades. So even early man used tools to produce their blades.

Is a handmade knife literally handmade, no. Most makers are using grinders, band saws, mills, etc.

As far as what do I consider custom knife. First, one individual's name is on the blade. This individual, produces a knife in such a manner, in such a way that if they chose to, they could submit their work for entry into the Knifemakers Guild.

Personally, I dont care if an individual uses available technology (Laser cutting, water jet cutting, EDM, CNC, etc.). These cutting methods and machineary do not make the knives. All they do is aid the maker in producing a blank to start with.

What we ultimately pay the knife maker for is their talent and experience. You think the aforementioned technology is cheating. Send off for a pre-cut and drilled knife kit and try putting it together. Then compare it to other makers work. I think you will see there is much more to making a world class knife.

Second, the knife is built by this same individual. This individual does the fit and finish on this knife. Afterall, this is what we are paying the maker to do. I can cut out parts, drill the holes, even use a jig on a mill machine. However, I cannot produce a knife that would be worthy of putting on a table and asking people to pay money for it.

Lastly, the knife or maker in question would be able to be displayed for sale at a custom knife show. Some of the larger shows (i.e. Blade Show)have both custom and factory knives. However, the sections are defined in the application for a sales table.

It seems to me that there is so much discussion of this because of the way knives are being advertised or mis-advertised. Also, the price for many of the factory knives have gotten to the point where they are close to the prices of custom knives.

So by trying to cloud the line between custom/factory this helps justify the money spent to obtain these knives.

Emerson, Reeve, Piorek and Busse now have factory knives available for sale. This is also causing confusion. For instance you see for sale on this and other forums Emerson CQC7. People click on it, then they find out it is $180. So immediately they know it is a factory. Also, side by side you know the two knives differ greatly. Such that there is on problem in telling which one is custom and which one if factory. Further confusion can be caused by the knife in the ad "feel the power". This factory knife has the custom "Specwar" logo. I would think the factory logo would be on the knife in this picture. It would probably help if the factory knives were shown with the Emerson Knives Inc. Logo. Just a comment on whats in the advertising.

If you hear or read the words distributor, wholesale, manufacturer or you see the knife advertised by 100 dealers across the country. It's not a "custom" knife.

Cliff, when I started in this 15 years ago, I never had a problem figuring out what was a custom knife and what wasn't. I guess that is why I find it hard to understand why so many other people have difficulty making the differentiation between the two.

Hope this doesnt muddy the water further.




------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
Les, I don't want to get int a grammar debate (and if you notice how often I have to edit my posts you will know why) - but I see a big contradiction in how you can customize a knife but the result is not a custom knife. That's like saying you can run faster and still be at the same speed.

From your description it looks like, as defined by the Guild, custom is primarly dependent on the fact that there is one guy behind it. That's fine - but - it makes little sense to me as I think of custom as is with the everyday usage like "was that custom made?".

I think of something being custom if I had it designed for me otherwise its production regardless of how it was made. As for RMLamey's comment, you have crappy custom makers. Just take a look at some of the other posts in this forum.

Anyway Les, you have defined what custom means in regards to this forum which is all I wanted to know. Did you ever come up with a name for a decent Bowie maker after ?

www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000262.html


-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 28 April 1999).]
 
Cliff, RMLamay, according to the definitions, the H.I. khukuri is a custom as it is completely made by one KAMI, per the definitions.

RMLAMAY, it is also completely hand made with only the crudest of tools like it was being made over 200 years ago. Hammer and forge and all locally available products in a country that does not have the access to power tools that we do.

Another thing is that a custom by the true definition is irrelevant of how many of that type of knife were made. Bagwell made 1000 Hells Bells, they would all still be custom knives. If Darrel Ralph made a tone of Kraits, they would all still be custom he made them all himself without an assembly line. Doesn't this make sense.
 
Cobalt it does not agree with how custom is used in other fields. If I go to a Tailor and get a custom suit made it will not be one off the rack - that is not custom regardless of if he made it by himself. It has to be made to my specifications to be custom.

I can see an arguement made for another defination (the one Les is using) as in "its customary for me to make my knives in this way" but like I said above, that is not used in that manner in a general sense.

-Cliff
 
By the way. I am not totally sure that HI khukuris are made by one person. In fact I know they are not. Different people make the handles for example than make the scabbards and the blades. Its very much a production line sort of thing. I am not even sure if the guy who does the forging and tempering does the grinding and final sharpening of the blade.

-Cliff
 
I always thought that one guy making knives by himself, was making "handmade knives". If he makes several of the same model, they cannot be "custom" in the true sense of the word. To me, custom knives are designed from scratch, or at least altered, to fit a customers needs.
 
The pic's on the web site show the Kami making the knife from start to finish, including the handle.

But if what you say is true, then, no knife that is made more than once is a custom. Therefore, the Bagwell Hells Bell is not a custom, based on your definition. The Krait is not a custom based on your definition. The Brend #2, #5 and so on are not customs by your definition. Only the one-off's are or the ones that you had your hand in. I see your point, but that is not what is meant by custom here, I think.

However, I will state that the custom makers I have dealt with will make the knife to your specifications, or if you want, it will be the same as the one they make normally. So the Brend you are getting is not Custom Cliff, by your own definition, since it is a standard model. I don't agree. To me a limited production knife made by one maker is a custom. One maker cannot make 100,000 knives very quickly so, I know not everyone will have one like mine.

Mike Franklin made changes to my knives that basically made them customs if they were not in the first place. Since every Hawg Millenium is different, they are customs. Carson will make my U-2's the way I want them. Lightfoot will make my predator and C-4 the way I want it.
 
Kamis can make the whole knife, but generally I don't think they do. In the shop the people that can do the tasks the best get assigned to it. This is what I recall, I have asked Bill to clarify it.

I realize my view is different from the Guild it is just what makes sense to me. And yes, I don't think that the Brend #2 I will be getting is a custom knife. It definately is not what I would call one and I would not refer to it as such.

I have custom knives, and I currently have 2 knives that I designed on order plus 2 more than I was somewhat involved in with the design, and yet still another 2 knives that are pending final agreement as I am waiting on the result of testing. These 6 I would call custom.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 28 April 1999).]
 
So, since the handle on the HI's is made by someone else it is not Custom in the strict sense.

So lets see:

A custom tailored suit, just for me, is a custom.

A factory hand gun, customized for me is a a custom gun in the gun world.

A knife made by a single knife maker is a custom.

I think you need to take the definition for each industry separatelly since they are all different.

Cliff, in your case, the knife you are having made custom is definitelly a custom. But, If I and 100 others decide we want the same knife from the same maker, your knife just became a non-custom. hehe.
 
It doesnt matter if one or more folks work on the knife, or even if the knife was made specifically for the individual that buys it.

Example: every year the ABS board of directors knife (this is the 12th knife), is made by a number of ABS Mastersmiths. This years is made by Bill Moran, Jay Hendrickson, Joe Cordova, Jerry Fisk, Hanford Miller and Joe Keeslar.

So is this a custom knife??? No one can credibly argue otherwise.

Second Example: The Japanese Swordmasters usually only forge and perhaps rough grind the blade. It then goes to a master finisher/polisher, then to a master handle artisan, etc.... The point is that many folks work on 1 sword. Are they customs??? Again, no one can argue otherwise.

Cliff-As far as quality of customs- with so many sources of information on custom knifemakers readily available, it is very easy to find a credible, talented and ethical maker.

The quality of the earlier mentioned semi custom or bench made knives is still not even close to any custom ive owned.

Oh yeah, Walters knives are customs.

 
By your sword definition, Lamay, the HI is a custom.

I think the problem is that every industry has a different definition of what a custom is.

 
Cobalt- Read my first post.

I stated that i did think they were customs, if the method they were made was consistent with your original description.
 
Cliff,

How do you figure a Walter Brend #2 is not a custom made knife??? Just say no to drugs!

Not only is this a custom knife, it is the best tactical fixed blade on the market. Bar none.

It is the knife I carried throughout my military career. While I saw other knives around me breaking and falling apart, to include every factory knife of the day and Randall's. My Brend never failed.

I put my Brend through a tougher test than the in the "lab" tests. I was a Infantryman using this knife on a daily basis. Not hoping it would hold up, not wondering if it would hold up. This is the knife when I got on the planes loaded with "live" ammuniton. I chose to possibly bet my life on.

Back to my first question, how do figure this is not a custom knife???

Les

 
I think all this confusion exists, because in the knife world, the word "custom" has its own, unique definition.
Webster's defines custom as: "made to order."

Now, if I ordered a Brend #2, straight from the Brend catalog, I would not consider that "made to order." On the other hand, if I requested a unique feature to be added, then it would be "made to order" and fit the definition. For something to be "custom" it has to be unique..UNLESS it's in the knife world, then...
A "custom" knife is, under most circumstances, any knife which is handmade, no matter how many of the same model exists in the same form. To me, it is somewhat illogical, but that's the way the word usage has been modified, so be it...

--dan
 
Is this a custom?

http://homepages.go.com/~jclinic/Kanemichi3.JPG

yet only the blade is done by the maker

The guard is by another artist

The habaki is by another....

And the scabboard is by another.

It's tough to draw a line between custom and handmade.

But my opinion is, the word "custom" varies with different concepts in mind. In my mind, custom knives are almost equal to art-work, or more closely working-art...

When a maker devoted his time to make the knife more than a tool.... When a maker view his work as art too.....When I feel that it is an art and yet it's a knife.....

Hard to draw a definition, what attracts me maynot attracts you.... the maker may feel that it's an art and I maynot feel the same way.... On the contrary, the maker may feel that he is making a tool and yet I may think that he has made a work of art.

So for MT collector, a brend-grind auto may be an art form and he may call it custom I think. I heard that Maddog grind all his non-standard models, to the eyes of his fans, it's an art, so I think it can be called customs.

Yet it is hard to differentiate.......Just what I feel...... don't know.....

Joe

 
Cobalt, I realize that it may be a different defination than most (or even all) it just makes sense to me. Its what I grew up with. My grandfather was a master craftsman who worked in wood, he would never consider something he did custom just because he made it. My mother was a dressmaker, she would not consider something custom just because she made it. I know people who work in metals including people who make knives (as a hobby - no pros) and they are the same way. Using custom to indicate something that was made without any input from the consumer seems very odd to me.

Now as for customs becoming noncustoms, if another person had a maker duplicate my design, you are correct I would not see those knives as customs. However, my knife was still custom made for me. No matter how many knives the maker produces after he makes mine can change that.

Les, first off I am not making any kind of quality statement about the Brend, I have not handled one yet, and I will wait until I do to judge its merits. Anyway I don't consider it a custom as Walter made it without any input from me. As for me being on drugs, the scary thing is that I am stone cold sober.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, I understand and I also know that it is amazing that "custom" can have different meanings. But I have dealt with this alot considering my other hobby is firearms and custom firearms. A customized firearm is a factory produced gun with a gunsmith having redone it to a certain extent depending on your needs. Imagine getting a factory knife, say a benchmade, and modifying it and calling it a custom. I think not. So all I'm saying is that we need to take the definitions for what they are in each different industry. So for example, the definition of a custom in the knife world only applies to knives not guns or cars. That's the way I see it.
 
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