Honing steels, just don't.

Right I totally understand.
The image furnished by Mr. Wizard is neither - perfectly uniform or typical - it is as close to ideal as possible - it looks pristine because it has yet to be used and will deform markedly in less than one stroke - fact.
So any cutting ability is pure conjecture and is not repeatable with the scientific method with a multitude of variables.
We will have to agree to disagree.
When I see an edge like that cut something as efficiently as a mildly serrated edge with before and after microscopy I will eat my words with pleasure.
Notice I said a "stable" apex after use which is the crucial adjective.
That can not be dismissed and discounted.
It is theoretical because it has yet to be used in real life.
 
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roaduck said:
Right I totally understand.
The image furnished by Mr. Wizard is neither -perfectly uniform or typical - it is as close to ideal as possible - it looks pristine because it has yet to be used and will deform markedly in less than one stroke - fact.
We will have to agree to disagree.
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How can you say it is a fact? It's not fact at all. I'm sounding like a broken record, but you clearly just don't want to know. Check the numerous articles on scienceofsharp for numerous freehand edges that have been checked with SEM photography that show without any doubt what is happening. A 1 micron wide apex will barely cut anything. There is a substantial amount of data about all of this. All you need to do is read and observe. Or do you think it is all fake? Similar data can be found with Edge-on-up who makes BESS testers.

You stated that if the micro-serrations were worn away the edge would stop cutting. Yes, because the apex would start rounding off and become wider and rounder, not because the serrations are gone. That is a fact.
 
I want to see before and after photos otherwise I am not interested.
I did not state that smoother micro serrations would not cut - I said that they were not as efficient which is the crucial descripter.
That is the scientific method - take it or leave it - without that concrete evidence it is pure conjecture and theory.
Serrations wear down with use that is an inescapable fact; that is common sense and the precursor to physics law.
A perfectly uniform smooth apex is nowhere near as efficient that is undeniable.
And one irregularity up or down in deviance - no matter how small is technically a serration.
Can I refer you to a friend who is the CEO of a multi-million dollar knife company ? - He would be delighted to give a contrary view.
 
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roaduck said:
I want to see before and after photos otherwise I am not interested.
That is the scientific method - take it or leave it - without that concrete evidence it is pure conjecture and theory.
Serrations wear done with use that is an inescapable fact.
A perfectly uniform smooth apex is nowhere near as efficient that is undeniable.
And one irregularity up or down in deviance - no matter how small is technically a serration.
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OK dude, your loss. There is a gamut of information based on testing and close up images for anyone who is interested. All you need to do is leave your preconceptions at the door and embrace learning.
 
I have been forging since 1979 chalby and I would love to see a smoother edge cut better than a jagged edge.
I rest my case alright.
I am not going to comment further to elucidate my point.
Pressure equals force over area - that is Physics law.
Smaller area = More force simple as that.
Oh I am 30 miles from a CATRA laboratory in Sheffield and surely they know the score together with literally cutting edge diagnostics and testing at Hallum University.
 
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roaduck said:
I have been forging since 1979 chalby and I would love to see a smoother edge cut better than a jagged edge.
I rest my case alright.
I am not going to comment further to elucidate my point.
Pressure equals force over area - that is Physics law.
Smaller area = More force simple as that.
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Whether a smoother edge cuts better than a coarse edge depends on the application, but your original point was "All blades are serrated - even on a microscopic level - or they wouldn`t cut - it`s just a question of a degree." That is false.

You have tried to move the goal posts by arguing that a coarser edge cuts better than a refined edge but even that is conditional(but I'd say mostly true for everyday tasks) and not what your original statement was talking about, and your assertion that most edges are around 1 micron is totally false.
 
Yes chalby I agree with you I should have added that they are not as efficient - my oversight.
Please accept my apology and retraction.
It was a sweeping generalisation which I should not have uttered.
I should have stated the obvious proviso and qualification.
Plus I was going on the width of ceramic blades which are not comparable to a lot of steels.
 
roaduck said:
Yes chalby I agree with you I should have added that they are not as efficient - my oversight.
Please accept my apology and retraction.
It was a sweeping generalisation which I should not have uttered.
I should have stated the obvious proviso and qualification.
Plus I was going on the width of ceramic blades which are not comparable to a lot of steels.
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No need to apologize. It's easy to misinterpret what people are saying sometimes especially in text like in forums and emails etc.
 
Thank you for being understanding chalby - I said a blanket statement without qualifying it with provisos and usage parameters - with implied headroom - much appreciated.
If the apex is smooth - it will cut but not as well as a slightly serrated one and will obviously degrade to sub par with use; it is not just about width - per se - it is the quality of the crystaline structure which supports the apex amongst numerous other variables.
Crystaline strength and the molecular matrix with carbides etc is hardly mentioned on the science of sharp - because that is a very deep subject indeed.
I only did metallurgy to HND level - and that was 30 odd years ago and is not sufficient to explain the whole concept in depth.
; that is probably second year degree level - up to masters - I don`t know.
Thanks brother.
 
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roaduck said:
Most, if not all apexes are a micron wide - please furnish me with results to disprove that statement or they are not stable.
The more serrations present - the better the cutting ability - why is that ?
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I have no desire to debate you but for the sake of other readers these statements are incorrect. Even a very toothy edge will have an apex width well under one micron when it is properly sharp. Again from scienceofsharp here is an edge from the Atoma 400 plate with plenty of tooth, and you can see that the apex width is easily sub-micron. The real-world effectiveness of serrations, or apex irregularity for that matter, though they are not true serrations, depends heavily on the task and form of cutting.


atoma400_p_02.jpg


atoma400_e_01.jpg
 
roaduck said:
If the apex is smooth - it will cut but not as well as a slightly serrated one
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Depends on the type of the blade and what it needs to cut.
If you are talking about a knife who needs to cut (draw cut) zip ties, sisal rope, bread and raw meat then I agree. Toothy adge will cut better and longer.
That's why I sharpen my EDC working knife with #240 or #320 diamond plate and just a little stropping to remove a burr. My knife will also shave but no one would call this a comfortable shaving.
If I would whittle wood with my knife I would give him a nice smooth polished edge.
On the other hand, a razor needs to do push cuts. If you want a comfortable shaving the edge should be smooth and in the range of 1/4 or 1/5 of a microne (250 to 200 nano meters).

If you are not one of those "I know everything because I freehand sharpen my knives all my life and people are sharpening knives for centuries and my grandpa lerned me how to sharpen knives on his old stone and he didn't need a SEM microscope" I advise you to visit 'scienceofsharp' site and read those articles. Lots of kniwledge there.
 
145, I’m that kind of person. Don’t get me wrong, I like reading on that website, but at the end of the day I’m doing it a lot like grandpa did it.

Except for my Tormek, and my Makita 9820-2, and a couple 20” stone grinders…

But I’d like to think grandpa would have used those machines if he’d had them.

Parker
 
catspa said:
145, I’m that kind of person. Don’t get me wrong, I like reading on that website, but at the end of the day I’m doing it a lot like grandpa did it.

Except for my Tormek, and my Makita 9820-2, and a couple 20” stone grinders…

But I’d like to think grandpa would have used those machines if he’d had them.

Parker
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There is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure most people who sharpen their knives couldn't care less whether they could get a knife 5 or 10% sharper or lasting 5 or 10% longer by altering their technique based on niche discussions like this. In a practical sense it's all a bit silly to worry about getting fractionally better results when your existing method gets more than satisfactory results already.

I think a lot of the disagreements on here on this sort of subject are just different people wanting different things. The school of "why try to fix something that ain't broke" vs the school of chasing the best possible result.
 
catspa said:
145, I’m that kind of person. Don’t get me wrong, I like reading on that website, but at the end of the day I’m doing it a lot like grandpa did it.
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Nothing wrong with that. At the end of the day the result should be a sharp knife for your needs.

For 90% of tasks I do with my knives I would only need 1 diamond plate (coarse) and 1 strop (6 microns) and that's it.
But....
Because this is my hobby I have about 15 diamond plates for my two sharpening systems, 3 big diamond plates to put them on the table and a few folding diamond sharpeners and also 10 strops and all sorts of compounds from 0.5 microns to 40 microns and some ordinary industrial polishing compounds.
Because this is my hobby I don't consider my knives as ''just a tool'', drag them across coffee cup and call them sharp enough. I like to experiment with grits and sharpening angles and strops.
I also like to read and absorb new knowledge about knives and sharpening. That's why I like to visit ''science of sharp'' and ''knife steel nerds'' and similar places on the net.
I have my working EDC D2 steel knife and I want it to have an aggressive edge to do draw cuts through zip ties, foam, plastic, fabric, cardboard, rope and similar. That's why I gave him a toothy edge.
I also have Mora Companion with smooth edge to do push cuts - whittling wood and push cutting through branches.
Because this is my hobby I also like to modify my knives. For example; I like Opinels a lot but can't stand Bowie or similar shaped blades so the first thing I do is to make them more like a drop or spear point.
Because I like to experiment with new things I use microscope to see what is going on with the edge I'm working on.
 
Hey guys, there was actually a followup video posted on the same channel.


Please watch the whole thing. Listen carefully. Two points I found most interesting was the discussion about definitions of what a burr is, and differing standards of sharpness. I think when talking about sharpness, one thing you definitely need to consider is "how sharp does this really need to be for its intended purposes?". Are your individual standards necessarily in line with what someone else might need, or your standards too high above what is needed for the practical purposes of a particular usage scenario?
 
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